£15 minimum wage

[BoldonLad]

But what about everyone who is on £11-15 an hour now after as supervisors of the people now being paid £15 an hour. How are their increases worked out?

I can only assume you did not live through the 70’s. What happened was a series of “industrial actions”, seeking “parity”. Most people got more pay, prices went up, etc etc result, most people were either worse off, or, same as they started.

 

[Craig the cyclist]

I can only assume you did not live through the 70’s. What happened was a series of “industrial actions”, seeking “parity”. Most people got more pay, prices went up, etc etc result, most people were either worse off, or, same as they started.

Exactly, and then we can look forward to the Labour party calling for a £25 minimum wage

 

[newfhouse]

How did you suggest it would be paid for?

How is the current cost of not doing so paid for? Much of it is the same money. If it is paid direct to the worker rather than as top-up benefits it means that every extra hour of work is worthwhile.

How can it be sensible that in some parts of the country a couple, both working 40 hours on minimum wage, still need state benefits to be able to live and bring up a family?

There’s more important factors to consider than your pay differential.

 

[Rusty Nails]

I can only assume you did not live through the 70’s. What happened was a series of “industrial actions”, seeking “parity”. Most people got more pay, prices went up, etc etc result, most people were either worse off, or, same as they started.

I did live through the 70s and wage rises, inflation and interest rates were ridiculous.

I don't know what is a fair and affordable minimum wage but It is simplistic and unrealistic to just accept £15 as a number without accepting that such a significant rise has an impact upon people earning more than that, and will lead to "parity" actions across all sectors.

There are huge complications, including affordability and inflation, to a significant, rapid rise to a minimum wage of £15 which must be considered as a whole rather than just using it as a totemic, electioneering figure, and we need to make sure that all these things are part of the decision-making process.

It cannot be a standalone issue but must be considered in all its implications.

 

[Craig the cyclist]

How is the current cost of not doing so paid for? Much of it is the same money. If it is paid direct to the worker rather than as top-up benefits it means that every extra hour of work is worthwhile.

How can it be sensible that in some parts of the country a couple, both working 40 hours on minimum wage, still need state benefits to be able to live and bring up a family?

There’s more important factors to consider than your pay differential.

So let's do it your way, if the raise was to £15, what would be the saving to the country?

You see no-one, you, the unions, the Labour party, no-one has the slightest clue about the cost implications of this. It is nothing more than a conference figure, utterly pointless uncosted, unaffordable, unelectable as a result!*


*Unless of course Diane Abbott did the costings, in which case it will all be sorted

 

[BoldonLad]

I did live through the 70s and wage rises, inflation and interest rates were ridiculous.

I don't know what is a fair and affordable minimum wage but It is simplistic and unrealistic to just accept £15 as a number without accepting that such a significant rise has an impact upon people earning more than that, and will lead to "parity" actions across all sectors.

There are huge complications, including affordability and inflation, to a significant, rapid rise to a minimum wage of £15 which must be considered as a whole rather than just using it as a totemic, electioneering figure, and we need to make sure that all these things are part of the decision-making process.

It cannot be a standalone issue but must be considered in all its implications.

Agreed. But, will that happen?

 

[newfhouse]

So let's do it your way, if the raise was to £15, what would be the saving to the country?

In cash or heartache? Poverty destroys lives.

You’re right, I don’t have the figures to hand - but neither do you it seems. What I do know is that the current situation is untenable and that simply saying that inflation will negate any wage rise has not been demonstrated either.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Agreed. But, will that happen?

No sensible government could introduce such a major change without considering all the benefits and all the costs.
There is no chance the Tories will even consider it, so Labour has to get back into power first by convincing the majority of voters, not just party members, that it can be that sensible. government.

 

[Archie_tect]

When the current NHS pay bands were negotiated Mrs A_T was downgraded from a 7 to a 6, as the management sought to reduce scientific officer grades to save money.

The minimum wage can easily be accommodated by regrading the whole system, whereby the lowest paid get £15 an hour and other levels are adjusted so that no-one takes a pay cut for their grade but some jobs, eg, those which have become simpler due to technological improvements are regraded. The scientists always resented the managers being given grades higher than them because anyone in control of a budget was deemed to have 'extra responsibility'. The last NHS pay grade adjustment took years of squabbling to resolve... life is seldom easy and most definitely not fair if you are unfairly paid for the hours and skills yoiu have then no-one should be worse off because their employer doesn't pay them enough to live on. The NHS is losing staff every day because of the stree of coping with unbearable demands on them..

 

[BoldonLad]

No sensible government could introduce such a major change without considering all the benefits and all the costs.
There is no chance the Tories will even consider it, so Labour has to get back into power first by convincing the majority of voters, not just party members, that it can be that sensible. government.

We have not had one of those in my life time

 

[BoldonLad]

When the current NHS pay bands were negotiated Mrs A_T was downgraded from a 7 to a 6, as the management sought to reduce scientific officer grades to save money.

The minimum wage can easily be accommodated by regrading the whole system, whereby the lowest paid get £15 an hour and other levels are adjusted so that no-one takes a pay cut for their grade but some jobs, eg, those which have become simpler due to technological improvements are regraded. The scientists always resented the managers being given grades higher than them because anyone in control of a budget was deemed to have 'extra responsibility'. The last NHS pay grade adjustment took years of squabbling to resolve... life is seldom easy and most definitely not fair if you are unfairly paid for the hours and skills yoiu have then no-one should be worse off because their employer doesn't pay them enough to live on. The NHS is losing staff every day because of the stree of coping with unbearable demands on them..

So... that would be the NHS sorted... what about the rest of the employees in the Country?, do we all go to work for the NHS?

 

[Archie_tect]

Sorry Boldon Lad I was just responding to Craig's post about NHS funding. The minimum wage is a political hot potato... it would be better to introduce a Universal Basic income to enable people to start off equal and then be rewarded fior working and acquiring training and new skills to develop through their working lives.

There is nothing to be gained by putting people in a poverty trap where they can't get the skills needed to get more responsible jobs and can't support themselves on the wages they can earn... means testing doesn't work as it requires an army of people to set and apply the tests and do the assessments which is a self-defeating exercise. Clearly Blair's aim of getting 50% of children into university didn't work as it just delayed being able to get work experience back 5 years and loaded young people without vocational skills with mountains of loans and debt. Vocational training and apprenticeships were the traditional route to get into work and those skills are needed more than ever now.

However workplaces taking on apprentices and work experience can't afford £15/ hour- in the 'old days' young trainees either lived at home or shared digs to make their low pay work out without getting into horrendous debt... the credit available to everyone these days means people get into debt very easily and very quickly... it's a minefield.

 

[BoldonLad]

Sorry Boldon Lad I was just responding to Craig's post about NHS funding. The minimum wage is a political hot potato... it would be better to introduce a Universal Basic income to enable people to start off equal and then be rewarded fior working and acquiring training and new skills to develop through their working lives.

There is nothing to be gained by putting people in a poverty trap where they can't get the skills needed to get more responsible jobs and can't support themselves on the wages they can earn... means testing doesn't work as it requires an army of people to set and apply the tests and do the assessments which is a self-defeating exercise. Clearly Blair's aim of getting 50% of children into university didn't work as it just delayed being able to get work experience back 5 years and loaded young people without vocational skills with mountains of loans and debt. Vocational training and apprenticeships were the traditional route to get into work and those skills are needed more than ever now.

However workplaces taking on apprentices and work experience can't afford £15/ hour- in the 'old days' young trainees either lived at home or shared digs to make their low pay work out without getting into horrendous debt... the credit available to everyone these days means people get into debt very easily and very quickly... it's a minefield.

Agree with most of that.

The other "flaw" in the "everyone get a degree" philosophy of Blair, was, if everyone has a degree, then degrees become worthless. It may be true that the "educational content" of a degree is useful, in some circumstances, but, the biggest "value" was/is acting as a filter to reduce the number of CV's to study when recruiting. Like King Canute and the tide, no Politician I am aware of has ever (totally) defeated the laws of supply and demand.

 

[Craig the cyclist]

You’re right, I don’t have the figures to hand

You are right, I don't have the absolute figures to hand (although I think the whole proposal is stupid and untenable anyway) but we do know that at £15 an hour your annual salary is around about £29,000 a year for full time workers.

So if we drop off the NHS, let's think about just the public sector, that is a minimum of £29k for every teacher, nurse, soldier, council worker, social worker, bin man, LA carer, street cleaner, maintenance man, civil servant and more besides in the whole country. As we have decided, everyone above minimum wage should also get an appropriate uplift.

Now stop avoiding the question, where does the money come from, considering some people will have their wages almost doubled?

 

[Mr Celine]

It's too big a jump from the present minimum wage. I do earn more than £15 an hour

I can only assume you did not live through the 70’s. What happened was a series of “industrial actions”, seeking “parity”. Most people got more pay, prices went up, etc etc result, most people were either worse off, or, same as they started.

Unless you were buying a house on an endowment mortgage.