£15 minimum wage

[Archie_tect]

I have never said don't raise the minimum wage, but where did £15 come from, what is it based on, how will it be paid for, and what happens when the experienced graduate realises that they earn the same by taking up an entry level job with zero responsibility against the level of responsibility they have now? Or do we raise their wages, and to what level, and what about the more senior people who are now being paid less than their team members, or do we raise their wages too?

Come on, give it some thought and stop using slogans, tell us how you think it would work.

Oh, and I get paid very well thank-you, but I am under loads of pressure.

I have given it some thought, I don't talk in slogans, I've pointed out what would have to happen for it to work. I don't know where the £15/hour comes from... I do believe that someone is worth their labour regardless of the responsibilities they have. If someone cannot support themselves or their dependants for the wage they earn then they have to be supported by the state. through means tested benefits and raised through taxation..... that is then paid for by you and me so whether you like it or not we do already support people worse off than ourselves. By investing in people's labour at source they are no longer dependant on means tested support and get a better quality of life which improves everything and reduces the social support 'burden' significantly for you and me.

Don't insult people by constantly asking them to think about things and belittling what people think. By criticising social reform you don't create anything - all you have to do is keep up the mantra 'where will the money come from?' Who's going Ito pay for it all? The money comes from everyone working as part of a capitalist society which generates a surplus and then raises taxes to fund services so that you and I don't have to teach our children, make our sick well again, feed and care for our elderly, mend our roads, empty our bins, catch criminals, There is no magic button- it has to be worked through by collaborating together not being provocatively divisive and negative- something local authorities and the NHS do every day to make the best of the limited resources and staffing levels, caused by this Government's dumbing down and austerity pre-Covid..

Ironically if the Government don't raise the personal tax threshold then all that will happen is that the poorest will; continue to pay more tax through income tax, NI and VAT, negating the political goal of a living wage... which is why a universal income is the better way as it levels everyone up right from the start of their working lives... Ironically levelling-up is the buzzword of this Government. You should be pleased.

 

[Fab Foodie]

I have given it some thought, I don't talk in slogans, I've pointed out what would have to happen for it to work. I don't know where the £15/hour comes from... I do believe that someone is worth their labour regardless of the responsibilities they have. If someone cannot support themselves or their dependants for the wage they earn then they have to be supported by the state. through means tested benefits and raised through taxation..... that is then paid for by you and me so whether you like it or not we do already support people worse off than ourselves. By investing in people's labour at source they are no longer dependant on means tested support and get a better quality of life which improves everything and reduces the social support 'burden' significantly for you and me.

Don't insult people by constantly asking them to think about things and belittling what people think. By criticising social reform you don't create anything - all you have to do is keep up the mantra 'where will the money come from?' Who's going Ito pay for it all? The money comes from everyone working as part of a capitalist society which generates a surplus and then raises taxes to fund services so that you and I don't have to teach our children, make our sick well again, feed and care for our elderly, mend our roads, empty our bins, catch criminals, There is no magic button- it has to be worked through by collaborating together not being provocatively divisive and negative- something local authorities and the NHS do every day to make the best of the limited resources and staffing levels, caused by this Government's dumbing down and austerity pre-Covid..

Ironically if the Government don't raise the personal tax threshold then all that will happen is that the poorest will; continue to pay more tax through income tax, NI and VAT, negating the political goal of a living wage... which is why a universal income is the better way as it levels everyone up right from the start of their working lives... Ironically levelling-up is the buzzword of this Government. You should be pleased.

….I admire your patience….

 

[Craig the cyclist]

Don't insult people by constantly asking them to think about things and belittling what people think.

it has to be worked through by collaborating together not being provocatively divisive and negative

I think I will keep those ready for the Brexit threads



But on topic, this £15 an hour, how would it work if a small business employing three people with three wages of circa £18,000 (£54,000) now has to pay about £27,000 (£81,000) just in basic pay. I would say that is them screwed, business closed, 4 people on benefits, success!

 

[Archie_tect]

I think I will keep those ready for the Brexit threads

But on topic, this £15 an hour, how would it work if a small business employing three people with three wages of circa £18,000 (£54,000) now has to pay about £27,000 (£81,000) just in basic pay. I would say that is them screwed, business closed, 4 people on benefits, success!

Craig, I've not been off topic... you are now selecting out of context lines for your own future amusement which, having read the extracts you've posted from my earlier post, I would be happy to stand behind in the Brexit threads- [can we agree collaboration is necessary to get us out of the Brexit mess now you've raised it... but that then includes our collaboration with the EU to restore freedom of movement and the single market, lest you forget when you bring this up again elsewhere].

Having run my own practice employing up to 5 people with differing expectations for 16 years, I have been there and I have done that. When monety got tight I never failed to pay everyone their due. Being a sole trader I did not hide behind limited company privilege + paid my taxes and employer's NI and managed the Government's PAYE VAT returns for them. To use your analogy a small business's turnover, if it is viable, runs on a third overheads, a third staffing costs and a third profit [ie the business owner's 'income']. Depending on the business increasing the staff cost element requires adjustment of the business;'s model. If their pay needs to increase then you adjust to cope you don't give in.

Besides which rather than allow you to set the rules and parameters, you've already avoided the basic principle that I would not start from where you are- I would introduce a universal income based so that people are then rewarded for additional responsibility and training to remove the burden of the means tested benefit system.

 

[Archie_tect]

[Edit; I ran my practice for 26 years, not 16, and I've never paid minimum wage to anyone, not even on work experience].

 

[Fab Foodie]

I agree in principal, but there's also the consumer element.

So many people will buy solely on price say from amo3on who they know are ariisses to their staff.

When for a few more quids, or even often no more quids at all, they could buy from someone with some ethics.

I know I bang on about the cost (price) of food, but even people who could afford to buy better, fair trade or whatever, will go for cheap as anything food.

Then moan about farmers 'despoiling the countryside' or not paying their workers enough, when often they're barely covering the cost of production.

It's got to be worked at from both ends.

Is it OK to buy cheap food and not moan about farmers though? Asking for a friend, obvs….

 

[mudsticks]

Is it OK to buy cheap food and not moan about farmers though? Asking for a friend, obvs….

Clearly it is.

I understand it's pretty much the default, so must therefore be acceptable .

 

[gbb]

I wonder how many people who say this is a crazy idea actually earn over 15 quid a hour themselves....paying people a living/decent wage sounds good to me.

Major problem is retaining a differential that rewards those that worked hard, got on deserve meaningful recognition (pay, its the only thing that matters really)
So you increase minimum wage to £15, what happens to those guys already on or even near that money....in some cases they get left behind (i didnt get a pay rise for 6 years while all those on mimimum wage got theirs...differential lost, i had a responsible, demanding job that simply stopped rewarding) Those in the middle suffer.
So you either stuff the level above or create wage inflation that results in price inflation....and all the problems that brings.

But then, the alternative could be....
Raise wages to a worthwhile level, take millions of people off support (rent help, benefits top ups etc etc)...and stop subsidising the mega companies (Amazon et al) that benefit from low wages,...that is supported ironically by the taxpayer.
Or tax the mega companies properly might be a good start....

 

[Deleted member 49]

But then, the alternative could be....
Raise wages to a worthwhile level, take millions of people off support (rent help, benefits top ups etc etc)...and stop subsidising the mega companies (Amazon et al) that benefit from low wages,...that is supported ironically by the taxpayer.
Or tax the mega companies properly might be a good start....

Good idea....ain't going to happen with this goverment though.

Major problem is retaining a differential that rewards those that worked hard, got on deserve meaningful recognition (pay, its the only thing that matters really)
So you increase minimum wage to £15, what happens to those guys already on or even near that money....in some cases they get left behind (i didnt get a pay rise for 6 years while all those on mimimum wage got theirs...differential lost, i had a responsible, demanding job that simply stopped rewarding) Those in the middle suffer.

Maybe if the wages of the so called un skilled rose to match those they would be appreciated more ? We need to level down the extreme wealth and the greed.Not point the finger at those trying to scrape by on poorly paid work and topping it up with benefits.

 

[Craig the cyclist]

Good idea....ain't going to happen with this goverment though.

Or indeed any incoming Labour government .......... "Sir Keir Starmer told Sky News he stood by the party's current policy of raising the minimum wage to "at least" £10 an hour."

 

[Craig the cyclist]

Maybe if the wages of the so called un skilled rose to match those they would be appreciated more ?

But if the 'unskilled' jobs are at the same level of reward as the 'skilled jobs', why would anyone go in to the more skilled jobs? If I can earn £15 from school doing some work mowing grass on a golf course, why would I work super hard, all hours, studying and gaining a degree in 3 years to be paid the same money?

At some point, the extra effort has to be worth the extra reward doesn't it? Or should a brain surgeon be paid the same as the Prime Minister and the bloke on the checkout at Spar?

 

[Deleted member 49]

Or indeed any incoming Labour government .......... "Sir Keir Starmer told Sky News he stood by the party's current policy of raising the minimum wage to "at least" £10 an hour."

I didnt mention Starmer did I ?

 

[Deleted member 49]

But if the 'unskilled' jobs are at the same level of reward as the 'skilled jobs', why would anyone go in to the more skilled jobs? If I can earn £15 from school doing some work mowing grass on a golf course, why would I work super hard, all hours, studying and gaining a degree in 3 years to be paid the same money?

At some point, the extra effort has to be worth the extra reward doesn't it? Or should a brain surgeon be paid the same as the Prime Minister and the bloke on the checkout at Spar?

Read my post....the levelling up needs to come from the top down.
You really can't see how the lower end of the job market works can you ? There's people really struggling to make ends meet.You should be embarrassed at the amount of child poverty in this country.
To be honest I don't give a feck if someone earning a decent wage gets bothered about someone lower down the ladder getting a bit of a rise.
I'd be quite happy that the bloke on the checkout at Spar was earning enough to not have to top it up with benefits.

 

[Craig the cyclist]

Read my post....the levelling up needs to come from the top down.
You really can't see how the lower end of the job market works can you ? There's people really struggling to make ends meet.You should be embarrassed at the amount of child poverty in this country.
To be honest I don't give a feck if someone earning a decent wage gets bothered about someone lower down the ladder getting a bit of a rise.
I'd be quite happy that the bloke on the checkout at Spar was earning enough to not have to top it up with benefits.

Got it, the levelling up needs to come down. Gotcha.

It is an embarrassment that there is poverty, you seem to believe I am arguing against all benefits and increases, I am not. My point is that at some point there is a divide, and that divide needs to be real enough that it motivates people to learn, train and do better for them and their families.

I don't know where you get the idea that I am advocating a return to the workhouse and flogging paupers, I am assuming that you have me down as the pantomime villain in threads of a political nature because it suits your agenda to have such a character. Stupid, student politics and numbers though (and £15 minimum wage is definitely one of those) don't help. Totally unrealistic, even the leader of the opposition baulked at it.

You also seem to think that I am UK version of Jeff Bezos, I'm not, but I have worked hard, put in a lot of effort and now am at a level where I earn a good wage. That doesn't mean I want to pull the bridge up after me, but wages and benefits have to come from somewhere, and if you run a small cafe/shop, and you wage bill goes up by a third overnight, that could be the end.

 

[Deleted member 49]

Got it, the levelling up needs to come down. Gotcha.

I've never thought different.

It is an embarrassment that there is poverty, you seem to believe I am arguing against all benefits and increases, I am not. My point is that at some point there is a divide, and that divide needs to be real enough that it motivates people to learn, train and do better for them and their families.

Not being thrown a few scraps now and again might go someway to help.

I don't know where you get the idea that I am advocating a return to the workhouse and flogging paupers, I am assuming that you have me down as the pantomime villain in threads of a political nature because it suits your agenda to have such a character. Stupid, student politics and numbers though (and £15 minimum wage is definitely one of those) don't help. Totally unrealistic, even the leader of the opposition baulked at it.

I honestly don't think about you that often 🙄
As for the leader of the opposition... I keep telling you he's not my choice and never was.Would I take him over Johnson...let me think 😂

You also seem to think that I am UK version of Jeff Bezos, I'm not, but I have worked hard, put in a lot of effort and now am at a level where I earn a good wage. That doesn't mean I want to pull the bridge up after me, but wages and benefits have to come from somewhere, and if you run a small cafe/shop, and you wage bill goes up by a third overnight, that could be the end

As someone who in your own words "earns a good wage" but who want to end the 20 quid a week benefit for the neediest.Sounds a lot like you want to pull the drawer bridge up ?
I heard all that sh1te about not being able to afford the last minimum wage increase,it was going to finish off business ECT...You sure your not Jeff ?