97yo convicted in Holocaust trial
- Thread starter matticus
- Start date
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Bromptonaut
Rohan Man
- Location
- Bugbrooke, Northants
That article appears to be paywalled.
BoldonLad
Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
- Location
- South Tyneside
OP
OP
matticus
Guru
Apologies - I didn't see any messages. Ah well ...
AuroraSaab
Squire
I'll admit to not knowing much about this trial, in terms of the evidence of what she actually did at the camp, but I have to wonder at the fairness of seeking to punish those who were young and were administrative staff, especially so long afterwards. She was a teenaged typist at the camp for 2 years. 18 when she started there, it seems. What would have happened if she had refused to do her secretarial job? Or refused to go there to work in the first place?
We all like to imagine we would be the heroic person of principle who stood up to wrongdoing. The reality is that in her situation we would have complied just as she did. And if she had been our daughter we would have told her to do as she was told rather than see her punished.
Obviously she has received a suspended sentence but the stress at 97 must have been considerable. The guy in charge of the actual camp only got 5 years when convicted in 1955.
We all like to imagine we would be the heroic person of principle who stood up to wrongdoing. The reality is that in her situation we would have complied just as she did. And if she had been our daughter we would have told her to do as she was told rather than see her punished.
Obviously she has received a suspended sentence but the stress at 97 must have been considerable. The guy in charge of the actual camp only got 5 years when convicted in 1955.
Fab Foodie
Legendary Member
It showing the world that however complicit you are in war crimes/crimes against humanity on such a scale, you will be be called to account for your actions. But it assumes that people had the choice or wherewithal to follow another path at the time....
Beebo
Guru
“Complicit in the murder of 10,500” seems a bit of a stretch to me.
Where does responsibility start and stop? What about the man you sold them the bricks to build the gas chambers? Or the train drivers who pulled the carts full of Jews?
If she is any normal human she will have carried this burden for 80 years, surely that’s punishment enough.
Where does responsibility start and stop? What about the man you sold them the bricks to build the gas chambers? Or the train drivers who pulled the carts full of Jews?
If she is any normal human she will have carried this burden for 80 years, surely that’s punishment enough.
AuroraSaab
Squire
I can see that, and I understand the idea that complicity in the Holocaust should not go unpunished regardless of the time elapsed. Charging people who were teenagers employed to do admin seems wrong though. As Beebo says, you might as well charge the engine drivers or station masters. You might as well revile Bomber Harris's secretary over the bombing of Dresden.
OP
OP
matticus
Guru
I think those are key questions. In general it is harder for a soldier to disobey orders, than for a civilian to move to a new job; so all other things being equal, the civilian is more culpable.
But I don't know in this situation if that is true.
Fab Foodie
Legendary Member
Totes agree. There is also a line between seeking justice for the victims and a zealous witch-hunt.
I've not read the details either, but on the surface this appears to fall into over-zealous persecution territory....
Fab Foodie
Legendary Member
That assumes the civilian can change jobs without collateral damage to friends or family.
You're not going to be moving jobs if your current employer has a gun at your parents head....
icowden
Squire
And an 18 year old girl in 1944 isn't exactly going to stand up and say "I don't agree with what you are doing, I quit".
OP
OP
matticus
Guru
If you read what I actually wrote, I didn't assume anything; and I thought I made that pretty clear!
But basically I think we're saying the same thing.
C R
Über Member
It is all rather complicated. In this case we have a very small cog of the machine becoming a symbol many years after the fact.
There's merit in the argument that she, and many others like her, would not have had any real choice. Political repression in Germany from the mid thirties had been such that people that disagreed with the government had either left, were sent to concentration camps or were dead, so if you knew what was good for you you kept your head down and did as you were told. Sophia Scholl is an exception, but it takes an exceptional character to do what she did, and I myself don't think I would be that brave.
On the other hand, German society did develop a casual indifference to those being rounded up and taken to the camps. Jorge Semprún was a French resistance fighter imprisoned at Buchenwald. In his book The Long Voyage he talks about going to one of the houses in the village next to the camp after being liberated; in there there's only a lady, and he asks if she knew what was going on in the camp, the lady doesn't answer, and when pressed she only talked about her son dead in the army. The whole thing was too big for her to see herself as a part of it. And that, I think is the difficult thing, it probably feels good to have some kind of symbolic punishment, but doesn't change the fact any of us would have been the same, or would be the same if the situation were to be repeated.
There's merit in the argument that she, and many others like her, would not have had any real choice. Political repression in Germany from the mid thirties had been such that people that disagreed with the government had either left, were sent to concentration camps or were dead, so if you knew what was good for you you kept your head down and did as you were told. Sophia Scholl is an exception, but it takes an exceptional character to do what she did, and I myself don't think I would be that brave.
On the other hand, German society did develop a casual indifference to those being rounded up and taken to the camps. Jorge Semprún was a French resistance fighter imprisoned at Buchenwald. In his book The Long Voyage he talks about going to one of the houses in the village next to the camp after being liberated; in there there's only a lady, and he asks if she knew what was going on in the camp, the lady doesn't answer, and when pressed she only talked about her son dead in the army. The whole thing was too big for her to see herself as a part of it. And that, I think is the difficult thing, it probably feels good to have some kind of symbolic punishment, but doesn't change the fact any of us would have been the same, or would be the same if the situation were to be repeated.
