After the Colston four, the Gill one?

[fozy tornip]

I contemplated the fate of the testicles of the angel on Oscar Wilde's tomb.

Have you lifted that from a Nick Cave song?

 

[Ian H]

I would say not, at least personally - I think it's difficult to separate an individual's art from the individual. Having some metally/gothy/industrial genes in my own musical makeup, I would have considered myself to be a borderline Marilyn Manson fan back in the late 90s/early'00s - following the allegations about his behaviour with former partners I think I'd struggle to enjoy listening to him these days - in fact I'd actively avoid doing so.

As far as the three mentioned are concerned, I'm not a fan of any - but I think it's interesting (but possibly irrelevant) that the one who still gets airplay is the only one who ever had any real credibility as an artist. Also happens to be the one who's the most successful by an enormous margin - and the one who's dead. Those details are also possibly entirely irrelevant.

Being dead does mean he doesn't profit from you buying his music, which might ease the moral dilemma.

 

[Fab Foodie]

I regard celery as the most underrated of vegetables, and I like a Hip Hop diversion as much as the next woman, but all this came about because 'Dutch' guy has some weird racist obsession with rappers, and it doesn't have much to do with owt. Gill's sculpture isn't a statue of a real person or part of any celebration or depiction of an individual. Neither does it belong to the same kind of civic myth-making process about benevolent philanthropists and public obligation to wealthy individuals.

I didn't dive into this thread from the outset because I like Gill's work and was distressed by the sight of someone taking a hammer to it - I was wary of making a knee-jerk defence of the piece that might not stand up to scrutiny. As I said upthread, I understand the point about the unfortunate intersection of contexts that heap meaning upon the scupture - Gill's abuse of his daughters, the depiction of a naked junior/child figure physically dominated by an older male one, the BBC's historic complicity with child abuse, and the movement to re-evaluate (and possibly remove or relocate) public art that confers status or honour on abusers and oppressors. There are valid arguments for relocating or recontextualising exceptional art as well as chucking mediocre statuary into the harbour.

Anyway, instead of picking a row on here, I spent a day or two revisiting the sork of Gill and his contemporaries, especially Epstein, whose work has suffered from philistine, puritanical, racist and anti-semitic vandalism and censorship in the past. I contemplated the fate of the testicles of the angel on Oscar Wilde's tomb. Now, as anyone who goes on Fridays Christmas rides probably knows already, both Epstein's and Gill's work (along with that of Henry Moore and others) adorns Charles Holden's magnificent building at 55 Broadway / St James's station. Epstein's Day sculpture has similar figures to those in Prospero & Ariel, and was the subject of a contemporary controversy about the length of the boy figure's penis. Many people on social media proclaimed confidently that Prospero & Ariel was a piece celebrating paedophilia. I'm not claiming that's an invalid interpretation, but I do suspect it has more to do with them Googling Gill and finding out what he did than anything fundamentally objectionable about the sculpture. Anyway, I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this, but I note that the broader support for Chick's act of vandalism seems to have melted away as quickly as the enthusiasm for interpreting sculpture descended, when it became more obvious what kind of an act was being committed. I'm not saying that Gill's scupture is unassailable because it's beautiful - but if Gill's intentions or character matter here, then so do Chick's. Misogynist Thugs Smashing Stuff Because They Think It's Peado [sic] Art is not a movement I can get behind.

I was with you on the Celery bit....

 

[farfromtheland]

... I think it's interesting (but possibly irrelevant) that the one who still gets airplay is the only one who ever had any real credibility as an artist. Also happens to be the one who's the most successful by an enormous margin - and the one who's dead. Those details are also possibly entirely irrelevant.

Michael Jackson wasn't convicted of child abuse offenses, was he?

Not that I really want to discuss his behaviour here, just that it's not by any stretch in the same vein as Gary Glitter's.

 

[theclaud]

Context is everything

Gotta find ways to while away the cold Welsh nights...

 

[swansonj]

We just have to know: are/were the testicles of the angel on Oscar Wilde's tomb large enough to be regarded by Mudsticks as vulgar?

 

[mudsticks]

We just have to know: are/were the testicles of the angel on Oscar Wilde's tomb large enough to be regarded by Mudsticks as vulgar?

I'd opine a little on the smallish side.

And carried rather high upon the torso.??

Mind you, it would wither even the stoutest chap.

Having to carry that load upon his back all the day long day..

 

[theclaud]

We just have to know: are/were the testicles of the angel on Oscar Wilde's tomb large enough to be regarded by Mudsticks as vulgar?

Images of the intact knackers are few and far between, but from what I can see they are not especially large in proportion to the angel they belong to. I imagine their notoriety was as much to do with their position and, well... reachability, as with their proportions.

This thread from the excellent Erin Thompson is worth a read...


View: https://twitter.com/artcrimeprof/status/1296168468509863939?t=wE2Qe-tKPrysjjYvDolpkA&s=19

 

[mudsticks]

Images of the intact knackers are few and far between, but from what I can see they are not especially large in proportion to the angel they belong to. I imagine their notoriety was as much to do with their position and, well... reachability, as with their proportions.

This thread from the excellent Erin Thompson is worth a read...


View: https://twitter.com/artcrimeprof/status/1296168468509863939?t=wE2Qe-tKPrysjjYvDolpkA&s=19

The pointy silver prosthetic is good value..

If a little anatomically .

unusual, shall we say..

 

[swansonj]

My joy runneth over. In one evening, I get to eat haggis and engage in intelligent conversation about the size of testicles. Truly, life just keeps getting better as I get older.

 

[mudsticks]

My joy runneth over. In one evening, I get to eat haggis and engage in intelligent conversation about the size of testicles. Truly, life just keeps getting better as I get older.

Mmmm Haggis.

 

[theclaud]

My joy runneth over. In one evening, I get to eat haggis and engage in intelligent conversation about the size of testicles. Truly, life just keeps getting better as I get older.

May you be ambushed with a cake on the morrow.

 

[icowden]

Michael Jackson wasn't convicted of child abuse offenses, was he?
Not that I really want to discuss his behaviour here, just that it's not by any stretch in the same vein as Gary Glitter's.

He wasn't, but I think his demise may have helped in that regard. As did his ability to pay off people and the lack of supporting evidence which weakened the prosecution in the second case. Glitter was caught bang to rights several times.

It could be the lack of successful prosecution that confers Jackson more leeway, or his massively greater stature as an artist. That said, many people grew up with the music of Rolf Harris, and some people must have liked Glitter - he did have some hits.

I always thought a good compromise might have been to allow airplay of the songs, but confiscate all royalty fees such that they go to a suitable charity.

 

[mudsticks]

My joy runneth over. In one evening, I get to eat haggis and engage in intelligent conversation about the size of testicles. Truly, life just keeps getting better as I get older.

Make the most mind.

Will probs be back to the standard bollix' tomorrow

 

[slowmotion]

Karl Bohm and Herbert von Karajan were both quite enthusiastic Nazis. Should I smash up some of my records or am I still allowed to enjoy their wonderful recordings on Deutsche Grammophon?

Fortunately, I'm not a fan of Richard Wagner so I won't lie awake at night tortured by his antisemitism or Hitler's fondness of his music.