After the Colston four, the Gill one?

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

I almost didn't reply to this as the discussion has progressed onto vegetables, but I will.
Perhaps it depends if you see a bigger picture.

Sure but you can't see the bigger picture of one side and ignore the other than you get a limited view, just like activist, marxist and dictatorships often have.

2pac was mainly a rapper. Churchill was mainly a politician. Coulston was mainly a profiteer.

Coulston was mainly an trader, put into that position because of his family but he made his money doing trading texiles, silk and gold ivory and slaves when he became member of the Royal african company.(not primarily slaves as often suggested)
2pac is the name in which he became famous for his rap, i don't share your opinion that he was mainly an rapper, he met Notorios B.I.G. trough a drug dealer for example. if you dig a bit futher in his history you can't other than conclude that he became that fame led him out of the gang world not the other way round. If you believe his gangster rap was mainly commercial you're wrong.

2pac became involved in other currents after and because of his roots in conscious black music. The reasons are very complex. He didn't kill anyone.

His parents where both linked to the black panthers and/or black liberation front ans likewise organisations. his stepfather is convicted for robery on a armoured transport killing the an guard and police officers in the progress, his mother was tried with over 150 charges. It's not very complex, he grew up with an broken picture of law and order as so many black persons in the US. That's not the say they the law in the US, is actually broken against black persons, but does not take away the fact that no place is more unsafe or a black person as the area's where 2pac grew up. and that has nothing to do with the Police.
Read about Nipsey Hussle for example, before he was killed because drugs dealers and gangsters did'nt like the direction he was going, he acknowledged these problems, and that he was a gangster before he was a rapper, and tried to get the black community together, denounce the weapons and built a better life. But he was fighting that battle alone so he was shot.
That's also why black children from not so good neighborhoods are send to family in better off families of possible as seen and off course simplified with added comedy for tv in the fresh prince of bell air.
These are all thing that do not come out of my thumb but those are the facts that are quite easily checked.

Churchill changed his political allegiance over time. He was not most effective in peace time but was able to steer Britain to fight nazis well. People were killed, but the alternative was worse.

agreed

Coulston made lots of money dealing in commodities dependent on enslaved African labour. Many people died through this and future generations suffered. His 'philanthropy' to distant white people is horribly tainted. A statue of him is more like a statue of Hitler than one of Churchill.

I don't have the numbers to disprove that statement but considering he was trading in textiles, silk, gold and ivory and slavery the gold, silk textiles and ivory must have been for show for your statement to be correct.
So how do you see lots? And are you holding Colston personally responsible for all slave trade? think you're wrong it was much bigger unfortunately (and the further you go back in time to more you discover it was far from ''only'' black persons who where enslaved)
Hitler wanted to exterminate an whole race just because he didn't like them, think your comparision between Colston and Hitler is a bit over the top. Surely slave trade was wrong but he did'nt seek to exterminate black persons.

 

[theclaud]

Sure but you can't see the bigger picture of one side and ignore the other than you get a limited view, just like activist, marxist and dictatorships often have.

Coulston was mainly an trader, put into that position because of his family but he made his money doing trading texiles, silk and gold ivory and slaves when he became member of the Royal african company.(not primarily slaves as often suggested)
2pac is the name in which he became famous for his rap, i don't share your opinion that he was mainly an rapper, he met Notorios B.I.G. trough a drug dealer for example. if you dig a bit futher in his history you can't other than conclude that he became that fame led him out of the gang world not the other way round. If you believe his gangster rap was mainly commercial you're wrong.


His parents where both linked to the black panthers and/or black liberation front ans likewise organisations. his stepfather is convicted for robery on a armoured transport killing the an guard and police officers in the progress, his mother was tried with over 150 charges. It's not very complex, he grew up with an broken picture of law and order as so many black persons in the US. That's not the say they the law in the US, is actually broken against black persons, but does not take away the fact that no place is more unsafe or a black person as the area's where 2pac grew up. and that has nothing to do with the Police.
Read about Nipsey Hussle for example, before he was killed because drugs dealers and gangsters did'nt like the direction he was going, he acknowledged these problems, and that he was a gangster before he was a rapper, and tried to get the black community together, denounce the weapons and built a better life. But he was fighting that battle alone so he was shot.
That's also why black children from not so good neighborhoods are send to family in better off families of possible as seen and off course simplified with added comedy for tv in the fresh prince of bell air.
These are all thing that do not come out of my thumb but those are the facts that are quite easily checked.

agreed

I don't have the numbers to disprove that statement but considering he was trading in textiles, silk, gold and ivory and slavery the gold, silk textiles and ivory must have been for show for your statement to be correct.
So how do you see lots? And are you holding Colston personally responsible for all slave trade? think you're wrong it was much bigger unfortunately (and the further you go back in time to more you discover it was far from ''only'' black persons who where enslaved)
Hitler wanted to exterminate an whole race just because he didn't like them, think your comparision between Colston and Hitler is a bit over the top. Surely slave trade was wrong but he did'nt seek to exterminate black persons.

Do you ever read what you've typed before you hit the Reply button?

 

[matticus]

Perhaps a better comparison to the issue of statues would be to compare the music of Gary Glitter, Rolf Harris and Michael Jackson. All of them were involved in very questionable and illegal activities, but only the music of one of them is now regularly played. Does the music carry the taint of the artist, or can you enjoy the music separately?

When you dig into this you find some interesting behaviour by musics fans and the music industry:

Following the broadcast of Leaving Neverland, radio airplay of Jackson’s songs decreased 32% in the weeks after the airing as the streaming of his songs on various services increased. Streams of Jackson’s songs increased by 22% in the same 31-week period following the documentary’s release. https://www.blackenterprise.com/mic...sed-after-hbos-leaving-neverland-documentary/

I was hoping to find stats for MJ airplay over the years since his ... "issues". It's my perception that he was effectively banned (on UK media) for a number of years, but UK airplays are now bouncing back to where you'd expect for a major artist of the 80s-90s.

(Can't remember the last time I heard a Glitter or Harris track!)

 

[Xipe Totec]

(Can't remember the last time I heard a Glitter or Harris track!)

Apart from their brief periods of commercial success in the 60s & 70s, prior to their offences becoming public both of them were reduced to little more than novelty acts, so you'd never have heard them with the regularity & saturation of MJ's output.

Apropos of nothing, I'd still quite happily listen to Alice Cooper's excellent 1971 version of Sun Arise.

 

[farfromtheland]

Coulston was mainly an trader, put into that position because of his family but he made his money doing trading texiles, silk and gold ivory and slaves

Textiles was a slavery dependent trade, gold and ivory were part of the triangular shipping system between Europe, Africa and the Americas.

2pac is the name in which he became famous for his rap... ... if you dig a bit futher in his history you can't other than conclude that he became that fame led him out of the gang world not the other way round.

His musical roots were in the liberated funk of the Parliament/Funkadelic old school.

His parents where both linked to the black panthers,,, ...black children from not so good neighborhoods are send to family in better off families of possible as seen and off course simplified with added comedy for tv in the fresh prince of bell air.
These are all thing that do not come out of my thumb but those are the facts that are quite easily checked.

There's a story in there somewhere.

... think your comparision between Colston and Hitler is a bit over the top.

Then please read it with a view to what I wrote rather than what you imagine I wrote.

 

[Cirrus]

My joy runneth over. In one evening, I get to eat haggis and engage in intelligent conversation about the size of testicles. Truly, life just keeps getting better as I get older.

If you’re eating haggis there’s probably some testicles in there, probably .

 

[Ian H]

When you dig into this you find some interesting behaviour by musics fans and the music industry:



I was hoping to find stats for MJ airplay over the years since his ... "issues". It's my perception that he was effectively banned (on UK media) for a number of years, but UK airplays are now bouncing back to where you'd expect for a major artist of the 80s-90s.

(Can't remember the last time I heard a Glitter or Harris track!)

Well, the latter were pretty much novelty acts, and of course still alive to profit from the royalties.

 

[Xipe Totec]

Well, the latter were pretty much novelty acts, and of course still alive to profit from the royalties.

Apart from their brief periods of commercial success in the 60s & 70s, prior to their offences becoming public both of them were reduced to little more than novelty acts, so you'd never have heard them with the regularity & saturation of MJ's output.

Apropos of nothing, I'd still quite happily listen to Alice Cooper's excellent 1971 version of Sun Arise.

 

[Ian H]

View attachment 598

Apologies for the inadvertent plagiarism.

 

[matticus]

I'd like to thank you both for pointing out that Michael Jackson was a more successful and talented musical artist than Gary Glitter and Rolf Harris.
I wasn't too sure, so it's nice to get some clarification 👍

 

[FishFright]

Perhaps a better comparison to the issue of statues would be to compare the music of Gary Glitter, Rolf Harris and Michael Jackson. All of them were involved in very questionable and illegal activities, but only the music of one of them is now regularly played. Does the music carry the taint of the artist, or can you enjoy the music separately?

Only two were found guilty.

 

[FishFright]

Do you ever read what you've typed before you hit the Reply button?

Would you have time to type all that AND read it ??

 

[FishFright]

He wasn't, but I think his demise may have helped in that regard. As did his ability to pay off people and the lack of supporting evidence which weakened the prosecution in the second case. Glitter was caught bang to rights several times.

It could be the lack of successful prosecution that confers Jackson more leeway, or his massively greater stature as an artist. That said, many people grew up with the music of Rolf Harris, and some people must have liked Glitter - he did have some hits.

I always thought a good compromise might have been to allow airplay of the songs, but confiscate all royalty fees such that they go to a suitable charity.

After all that plastic surgery, skin treatments and bleaching Michael Jackson remained too black to be actually not guilty. .....

 

[newfhouse]

It seems the good people of Grantham have decided to throw eggs at Thatcher’s statue in protest at her previously unpublicised involvement in the autoerotic asphyxiation scene.

https://news.sky.com/story/margaret...ooed-after-being-erected-in-grantham-12613608

 

[mudsticks]

It seems the good people of Grantham have decided to throw eggs at Thatcher’s statue in protest at her previously unpublicised involvement in the autoerotic asphyxiation scene.

https://news.sky.com/story/margaret...ooed-after-being-erected-in-grantham-12613608

View attachment 1187

Shocking waste of eggs.

Have they seen the price of chicken feed
!?!?!?

Donate the eggs to a food bank if you can spare them .

There's all sorts of other effluvia to be found in bins, if you must throw things .

Can't help feeling the contractors lowering the statue knew what they were up to..

I mean could that strop not have gone under her armpits??