Big brother Tesla

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icowden

icowden

Squire
the snail said:
I think the tesla system is an open system, so other providers can build chargers to that standard. The tesla system seems to be the only reliable public system, so this is probably a step forward.
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It is, but there is a caveat. Musk has made all the patents available for free but many companies won't use them because of the rules:-
You may think that applying the open source philosophy today in such a competitive environment, and even in the past in such a potentially large growth sector, would be a crazy thing for Tesla to do. However, this is because ‘open source philosophy’ does not really change things for Tesla’s actual competitors.

Tesla’s ‘open source philosophy’ comes with conditions. The main qualifier in Tesla’s ‘Patent Pledge’ is that Tesla will not initiate patent lawsuits against a party acting in ‘good faith. According to Tesla, a party is acting in ‘good faith’ so long as the party (and anyone related/affiliated/associated) has not asserted, helped to assert, or financially backed an assertion of (i) any intellectual property right against Tesla, or (ii) any patent right against a third party for the use of its technologies relating to electric vehicles or related equipment challenged, helped to challenge, or financially backed a challenge to any Tesla patent marketed or sold any knock-off Tesla product or helped another party to do so.

So, essentially, Tesla’s patents are only free to use if: you do not enforce any right against Tesla, you do not enforce any patent right against another party, you do not oppose Tesla’s patents or copy Tesla’s designs.

Using Tesla’s technology would essentially make any other company’s own intellectual property rights redundant. On the other hand, Tesla benefits from the arrangement because it appears that Tesla is free to use any improvements made to its technology by another party.

The options mentioned above are not the only way a party can use Tesla’s technology. Parties can still attempt to use Tesla’s technology without necessarily having to open up their own IP portfolios by negotiating a licencing agreement with Tesla. Yet, it should still be clear that Tesla is still gaining from the transaction, whether it be in the form of licencing fees or royalties, or even cross licencing.
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The final paragraph points out that you can also license Tesla technology - at a cost.
 
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albion

Guest
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...o-much-that-drivers-thought-cars-were-broken/

Whilst I was sceptical, Tesla, thought being much the same as everyone in range declaration, on reading, there is a case.
Marketing was way ahead of fact for FSD so here those 'true range reporting only below 50% battery' rumours might also be fact.

And here it says ' In contrast to Tesla cars, Edmunds reported that "most non-Tesla vehicles have surpassed their EPA estimates.'
So the EPA on Tesla might in fact be bigger bullshit than the rest.
 
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icowden

icowden

Squire
albion said:
Whilst I was sceptical, Tesla, thought being much the same as everyone in range declaration, on reading, there is a case.
Marketing was way ahead of fact for FSD so here those 'true range reporting only below 50% battery' rumours might also be fact.
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It's just guesswork.

My Renault Grand Scenic used to guess how far you could go on a full tank. It was always wrong.
The important thing is the amount of charge left just as in an ICE car it's how much fuel is left in the tank.

You cannot predict how far a car will go on a set amount of energy. There are too many variables. Wind speed, traffic speed, starting and stopping, how much you have in the boot, whether you have passengers etc,

Tesla Model 3 driver Alexandre Ponsin "was sometimes getting less than half" of his 2021 vehicle's advertised range of 353 miles, particularly in cold weather
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No shoot sherlock.

The simple fact is that if you have just done 200 miles at 60mph your next range calculation will be wildly optimistic unless you are also doing 200 miles at 60mph.
 
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albion

Guest
it was inferred that Tesla overstate the range far more than competitors do.
It was inferred that Tesla only switch to a realistic reading when the battery gets below 50%.
And a problem for Musk is that few believe anything he says, likely clouding the issue further.

'
The directive to present the optimistic range estimates came from Tesla Chief Executive Elon Musk, this person said.

"Elon wanted to show good range numbers when fully charged," the person said, adding: "When you buy a car off the lot seeing 350-mile, 400-mile range, it makes you feel good."

"In April, Car and Driver reported that its testing showed Tesla "pursues an impressive figure for its window stickers, and ends up returning real-world results that are on average two times as far off the label value as most EVs." BMW, Mercedes, Audi, and Porsche "typically provide a relatively conservative range figure, allowing us to meet or even at times exceed the range numbers in Car and Driver's real-world tests." As a result, "400 miles of stated range for a Tesla and 300 miles for a Porsche is pretty much the same number at real highway speeds."

'Car and Driver data was used in a recent study by SAE International. One of the study co-authors reportedly "told Reuters that three Tesla models posted the worst performance, falling short of their advertised ranges by an average of 26 percent." '

In January, South Korea's antitrust regulator fined Tesla $2.2 million, saying the company exaggerated the "driving ranges "

If real live power draw figures are available then the comparison task should be extremely easy to do.
 
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icowden

icowden

Squire
albion said:
it was inferred that Tesla overstate the range far more than competitors do.
It was inferred that Tesla only switch to a realistic reading when the battery gets below 50%.
And a problem for Musk is that few believe anything he says, likely clouding the issue further.
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I get that. I just don't understand why it matters.

Lets look at the Tesla S Dual Motor. Tesla advertise this as having a range of 355 miles.

EV Database says:-

Real Range between 260 - 505 mi​

City - Cold Weather335 mi
Highway - Cold Weather260 mi
Combined - Cold Weather300 mi

City - Mild Weather505 mi
Highway - Mild Weather340 mi
Combined - Mild Weather415 mi

So in the real world the range can vary by 245 miles depending on the type of driving and the weather. That's a *lot* of variance.
So is it fair to say that the Tesla S Dual Motor has a range of 355 miles? Well the average of all those figures which have been obtained by real world driving is 359.1 miles. So 355 seems reasonable.
 
icowden

icowden

Squire
Rusty Nails said:
You don't diss Tesla when icowden is about.
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To be fair - you can diss Tesla - you just need to back up the diss :-)

The reason the EV database started in the first place is that we know manufacturers are lying about the range that their cars can do. It's the best place to get a real world idea of the range of a vehicle.

VW claim 328 miles as the range for the ID4 Pro. The EV database says 255 miles. In my experience the EV database is pretty spot on. Interestingly the only category that gets close to the mileage claimed by VW is City driving in mild weather. Everything else is lower.

Tesla claim the Y long range has a range of 331 miles. EV Database says 270 miles etc etc
 
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icowden

icowden

Squire
albion said:
Not exactly dieselgate, but I just don't understand why you think Tesla is allowed to massage the most.
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I just don't think it matters. We don't bother looking at whether the range predictors in ICE cars are accurate, we look at the MPG.
For an EV we should be looking at MPKwH and total capacity of battery.

Range predictors are just nonsense.

If you want to talk range, then the best way forward would be for manufacturers to be forced to provide a real-world range rather than WLTP which is a fictional range set in a test facility.

The problem is that from the get go the number one myth / issue that journalists like to jump on is "how far can it go?" "These EVs can't go very far can they? WHat if they can't go far enough? Why can't they go 600 miles like my diesel can?".

The simple answer is that the average car journey distance in the UK is 8.4 miles. You *might* a few times per year drive further than 150 miles in a single trip. But these are the exception not the rule. Range really doesn't matter. You either want a runabout with short range, or you want a family car with about 250 miles range (which is most EVs).
 
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Rusty Nails

Rusty Nails

Country Member
icowden said:
To be fair - you can diss Tesla - you just need to back up the diss :-)

The reason the EV database started in the first place is that we know manufacturers are lying about the range that their cars can do. It's the best place to get a real world idea of the range of a vehicle.

VW claim 328 miles as the range for the ID4 Pro. The EV database says 255 miles. In my experience the EV database is pretty spot on. Interestingly the only category that gets close to the mileage claimed by VW is City driving in mild weather. Everything else is lower.

Tesla claim the Y long range has a range of 331 miles. EV Database says 270 miles etc etc
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Come on, you know you're just EV-angelising to angle for a discount on your next car from Elon.
 
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