But Where Are You Really From?

[matticus]

Therefore you feel free to keep using a term which you know causes offence to a large number of people on a thread which is all about the outrage around how 1 person has been offended.

I have to say that I too find that aspect funny!

 

[mudsticks]

I've actually zoomed out from the particular instance here - which may have been tactlessness rather than racism - considering the bigger picture. Yet the incident does illustrate the bigger picture in that although no actual damage was caused this has caused a massive discussion on social media.

I am fairly resistant the white privilege mantra. White males who have actually been oppressors can legitimately be criticised for it, but not those who haven't. Same for white females. And everyone else. In other words I reject identity politics. And I'm not going to allow anyone to try to 'visit the sins of the fathers' on me!

That said I do think you have a moral obligation not to be offensive, i.e. not to deliberately set out to offend, and conversely the person on the receiving end should attempt not to be easily offended (there is no right not to be offended). If it does go wrong and I agree that it can, it should be sorted out between the parties involved and no-one else unless it was in a very public context.

You know I actually came across a couple of whites (in America!!) who were bleating about being oppressed recently. So yes, it can exist. I'm talking about the victimhood of minorities like women (who are actually a majority), ethnic and sexual minorities. They are victims by virtue of the designation given to them, which is no more true than all white males are patriarchs.

Well despite trying to draw out to the bigger picture here you're reducing the the whole thing to absolute binaries

Suggesting that if not 'all' poc or other groups are oppressed, or discriminated against 'all' of the time, then no one from those groups can claim they ever are.

The thing is many people can claim they're 'not deliberately trying to offend' but they're doing it by default, just carrying on business as usual.

There are plenty of words and attitudes actions and ways of being that have been carried forward by our previously blatantly racist sexist, homophobic (etc) society, into today.

To neglect to actively change in the face of all that is to cause harm via neglect.

The fact that some people are resistant to seeing the harm, or changing their ways is a shame, but sadly unsurprising.

Especially if they're from groups who have hitherto benefitted from holding the majority of power and can keep it via airily ignoring discrimination, diminishing or denying it's effect.
It's an insidious way of maintaining the status quo, you see it done routinely.

White males (for example) who ignore or deny or seek to diminish the effect of racist discrimination which is happening now, are complicit in that discrimination continuing. So they can't claim to be 'innocent' of perpetuating inequality, they're commuting a sin of omission..

Otherwise known as "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem"

Damage was done to ms Fulani, she recounted her distressing experience, most decent people could imagine how 'othering' that must have felt, how it stopped her from feeling welcome at an event she'd gone to participate in..

Lady Hussey, seems eventually to have seen that too and has admitted her error.

Since then, despite all that Ms Fulani has received further hateful messages from others seeking to denigrate her.

How can you call that 'no damage done' ??

Maybe in your circle, you don't come into contact with many people who have been on the recieving end of racism, misogyny, homophobia and so on, but it's certainly not some kind of 'culture of victimhood'

This stuff does real and lasting damage and is discriminatory.

 

[matticus]

Lady Hussey, seems eventually to have seen that too and has admitted her error.
Since then, despite all that Ms Fulani has received further hateful messages from others seeking to denigrate her. How can you call that 'no damage done' ??

You can't pin those on LadyH.

(And I sincerely hope you don't regard Umkraut and I as hateful for saying Hussey's questions werent' as bad as you are making out.)

 

[newfhouse]

although no actual damage was caused

You don’t know that. Do you think this was the first and only time that she had her hair touched or had her nationality (and by implication loyalty and worth) questioned? Is it possible that individually minor incidents can have a cumulative effect? And that on this occasion, having been done by a representative symbol of the actual state, it had a greater impact?

I am fairly resistant the white privilege mantra. White males who have actually been oppressors can legitimately be criticised for it, but not those who haven't. Same for white females. And everyone else. In other words I reject identity politics. And I'm not going to allow anyone to try to 'visit the sins of the fathers' on me!

White privilege simply means that of all the problems you may have in your life, discrimination on the basis of skin colour is not likely to be one of them. Nobody says you are personally responsible for the sins of the past, although you may well have derived some benefit or advantage, and that is worth recognition.

You know I actually came across a couple of whites (in America!!) who were bleating about being oppressed recently. So yes, it can exist.

Never denied.

 

[mudsticks]

You can't pin those on LadyH.

(And I sincerely hope you don't regard Umkraut and I as hateful for saying Hussey's questions werent' as bad as you are making out.)

I wasn't pinning them on Lady Hussey, certainly not directly.

Although if she'd not done her interrogation in the first place , none of the rest of it would have happened, it had a cascading effect.

One thing lead to another, and then it's ms Fulani who has since received flak from nasty people online, for daring to recount what happened to her .

Adding insult to injury ..

What better way to silence people from speaking out than to try to insinuate they're the ones, making a fuss about nothing, and that they're the ones 'in the wrong'.

It's done routinely enough.
"It was only a bit of banter" etc etc

We see it often enough


As for how I might regard the character of yourself and Unkraut? I don't believe for one moment that my opinion on that causes you any concern at all ...

 

[spen666]

So much hypocrisy from so many exhibited in this issue

 

[newfhouse]

So much hypocrisy from so many exhibited in this issue

Hard to agree or disagree without illustrative examples.

 

[qigong chimp]

And I'm not going to allow anyone to try to 'visit the sins of the fathers' on me!

Are you similarly squeamish about the wages of the 'sins of the fathers' being visited on you?

 

[icowden]

Where does this idea that racism is being stirred up for political purposes come from though??
That sounds as if you're suggesting that ms Fulani incited Lady Hussey to say those things, and then it was used against her for some kind of 'political' end - could you expand upon what that 'political' end might be??

The conspiracy theory for want of a better word is driven by the following trains of thought, I think:

• Ms Fulani is operating under an assumed name having been born as Marlene Headley
• She deliberately wore Nigerian dress rather than her usual clothes.
• There are some questions about Sistah Space and where funding is going, as well as some funds which have gone missing. She apparently drew a wage of £65k as the sole employee of Sistah SPace and there s £180k in unaccounted expenses.
• She has previously accused the Royal Family of being institutionally racist, and being guilty of Domestic Violence against Meghan Markel - thus she may have an axe to grind.

The more foaming individuals draw the conclusion that because of the above, it must have been some sort of publicity stunt and that SIstah Space has been pushing out fundraising requests since this blew up, thus this is the justification.

Where it falls down is that even if Fulani had been planning some sort of trap to get exposure on the world's press, it doesn't excuse the line of questioning from Lady Hussey. No-one *made* her ask the questions, or cause her to behave in the way that she did.

Where it gets slightly interesting is that Fulani initially stated that she had mixed feelings but this rapidly turned around to being violated and abused.


View: https://twitter.com/Sistah_Space/status/1597854380115767296?s=20&t=51-aMayTJFk6ck13uDB5Fw

 

[matticus]

One thing lead to another, and then it's ms Fulani who has since received flak from nasty people online, for daring to recount what happened to her .

Adding insult to injury ..

What better way to silence people from speaking out than to try to insinuate they're the ones, making a fuss about nothing, and that they're the ones 'in the wrong'.

Maybe it's these "nasty people online" that are the problem there. Not Lady Hussey, not Ms Fulani (for speaking out).

 

[fozy tornip]

So much hypocrisy from so many exhibited in this issue

I'll say! Did it not occur to Ngozi Fulani to check Hussey's pronouns, instead lazily stereotyping and assuming she was talking to a cisgendered, hetero-normative female and addressing per as 'Lady'!
Woke my arse.

 

[Ian H]

The conspiracy theory for want of a better word is driven by the following trains of thought, I think:

• Ms Fulani is operating under an assumed name having been born as Marlene Headley
• She deliberately wore Nigerian dress rather than her usual clothes.
• There are some questions about Sistah Space and where funding is going, as well as some funds which have gone missing. She apparently drew a wage of £65k as the sole employee of Sistah SPace and there s £180k in unaccounted expenses.
• She has previously accused the Royal Family of being institutionally racist, and being guilty of Domestic Violence against Meghan Markel - thus she may have an axe

For information:-
No employees have total benefits over £60k for this charity
https://register-of-charities.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regId=1179934&subId=0

 

[mudsticks]

Hard to agree or disagree without illustrative examples.

It is a bit vague for sure.

Maybe it's these "nasty people online" that are the problem there. Not Lady Hussey, not Ms Fulani (for speaking out).

The nasty people on line are just one of many.symptoms of an underlying problem that's been there for a long time.

When we start to expose, and try to tackle that problem, there will inevitably be push back.

 

[mudsticks]

Are you similarly squeamish about the wages of the 'sins of the fathers' being visited on you?

Depends on how you're choosing to read your bible really 🤔

If it can be used to demonise homosexuality, or try to prevent women accessing reproductive healthcare then we'll yes..
We're all over it .

If it might inconvenience ourselves, then maybe..

Not so much.. 🙄

 

[spen666]

People are so often to criticise others without realising what they themselves are doing