But Where Are You Really From?

[Rusty Nails]

It is quite possible that Lady H did not intend to be racist or to slight Ms Fulani in any way and that she is merely out of touch and elderly. It doesn't change the fact that this was not appropriate, and perhaps she is not the right person to be doing what she was doing. That said, my grandma was 103 when she passed away this year and she would not have pursued such a line of questioning for so long. Lady H seems to have no self-awareness at all.

This is far too rational to be included in this thread.

Are you unaware of the rules...the best and/or worst interpretations must be adhered to and repeated with any deviations from these regarded as closet racist/woke virtue signaller?

 

[Craig the cyclist]

What size section of the ethnic minority community is offended by BAME as a descriptor, can anyone tell me?



Thanks for clearing that up.

I've asked that too. Not holding my breath for an answer, still less one that directly addresses the question.

It wasn't posted in isolation. @Craig the cyclist made a clear statement to the effect the the term is offensive.

To whom and in what numbers is, IMHO, a reasonable question.

Well, this is an intriguing attack on me isn't it?

I don't know the exact number of minority people this offends, maybe you could tell us how many have to be offended before you stop using the term? Do you need 40%, 50%, 60% of people to be offended, or more? Because I would have thought that if it offends 1 person, and can be easily avoided then you should avoid it? That is largely what this whole thread is about, one person saying something that they should not have said and could be easily avoided.

As you seem to not believe me though, you could ask........

Professor Paul Olomolaiye from Bristol Uni https://info.uwe.ac.uk/news/uwenews/news.aspx?id=4206

The Commission on Racial Equalities, https://equalities.blog.gov.uk/2022/04/07/why-we-no-longer-use-the-term-bame-in-government/

So there is my answer, now maybe you could tell us how many people you are happy to offend so you, as white people, can carry on using the term BAME?

 

[mudsticks]

I think the discomfort comes from wondering if racism is actually being stirred up for political purposes. Far from oppression being enshrined in law the opposite is now the case, and cases where you could have got away with discrimination in the past have now been done away with. That doesn't mean wrong attitudes have necessarily all gone by any means, but do we really want to live in a society where you have to watch every syllable you utter in case somebody is offended?

Isn't the culture of victimhood in danger of putting such progress as has been made into reverse?

Since we don't know that (her intentions), doesn't that make this episode something of a storm in a Palace tea cup?

Where does this idea that racism is being stirred up for political purposes come from though??

That sounds as if you're suggesting that ms Fulani incited Lady Hussey to say those things, and then it was used against her for some kind of 'political' end - could you expand upon what that 'political' end might be??

I have seen such idea proposed on other platforms - along with ideas such as Ms Fulani should have been genuflecting in the presence of Lady Hussey and should have been compliant in the face of her interrogation - basically saying that ms Fulani should be so lucky to even be invited at all- and should jolly well know her place.

It may be the case that discrimination has been done away with 'in law' but that doesn't mean its effects and practice have gone away in society by any measure.

Just two institutions by themselves eg the police and the fire service have been exposed as institutionally racist - they themselves acknowledge the problem. - pretending that the law alone fixes all this is naive to say the least.

The fact that you've not felt you've particularly had to consider whether your language is discriminatory in social (or other) situations before suggests that your privelege is strong.

Of course you don't have to watch every syllable - you just have to think about how you may come across to someone who has historically at least been at a disadvantage to a person such as yourself - just make sure you're not being an arriss..

If you're not sure about what language to use you can always ask in a spirit of open hearted ( and open eared) enquiry - you never know you might learn something new .

In conclusion I agree this false culture of white ( and male) victimhood is both unhelpful, and in danger of putting progress into reverse.

 

[newfhouse]

wondering if racism is actually being stirred up for political purposes

Racism is political.

It wasn’t stirred up; it actually happened. You can argue, if you must, about the intent or effect of this incident but you can’t really deny what was said, given that neither party has disputed the newspaper account and fulsome apologies have been issued.

 

[fozy tornip]

Can someone straighten out for me what sort of attack on Craig it is we're witnessing in this thread?

...this is an intriguing attack on me...

Thanks; I wasn't sure.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Well, this is an intriguing attack on me isn't it?

I don't know the exact number of minority people this offends, maybe you could tell us how many have to be offended before you stop using the term? Do you need 40%, 50%, 60% of people to be offended, or more? Because I would have thought that if it offends 1 person, and can be easily avoided then you should avoid it? That is largely what this whole thread is about, one person saying something that they should not have said and could be easily avoided.

As you seem to not believe me though, you could ask........

Professor Paul Olomolaiye from Bristol Uni https://info.uwe.ac.uk/news/uwenews/news.aspx?id=4206

The Commission on Racial Equalities, https://equalities.blog.gov.uk/2022/04/07/why-we-no-longer-use-the-term-bame-in-government/

So there is my answer, now maybe you could tell us how many people you are happy to offend so you, as white people, can carry on using the term BAME?

Is this the best you could come up with to support your point of view?

This is the point with which people disagreed with you...

knowing that it offends a large section of the ethnic minority

You cannot say who is included in this "large section" that the term offends and/or how many make up a "large section", and the two items you link to do not in fact say that the term is offensive, just innacurate, too all-encompassing and inappropriate in most cases.

For the record I do not like or use the term BAME, except in conversations like this, and worry about using any term that  may be offensive to some and think it is a minefield wherein the mines are constantly being moved. It is an issue that requires care...out of respect for other people's opinions and sensitivities,

 

[Craig the cyclist]

Can someone straighten out for me what sort of attack on Craig it is we're witnessing in this thread?



Thanks; I wasn't sure.

Sorry, I didn't catch how many people you are happy to offend to carry on using the term?

 

[Craig the cyclist]

Is this the best you could come up with to support your point of view?

This is the point with which people disagreed with you...


You cannot say who is included in this "large section" that the term offends and/or how many make up a "large section", and the two items you link to do not in fact say that the term is offensive, just innacurate, too all-encompassing and inappropriate in most cases.

For the record I do not like or use the term BAME, except in conversations like this, and worry about using any term that  may be offensive to some and think it is a minefield wherein the mines are constantly being moved. It is an issue that requires care...out of respect for other people's opinions and sensitivities,

Ha, you are going to join in this are you? How many do you think make up a 'large section', and does it even matter? If it offends 1000 people do those BAME people just have to suck it up because the others don't care?

Maybe you could tell us why you only use the term in conversations like this?

As you have said, out of respect for others opinions and sensitivities you are careful with you words, here is a situation where it has been pointed out this can be insensitive, but you are defending the others just because I am offering the contrary point of view. Get a grip man.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Ha, you are going to join in this are you? How many do you think make up a 'large section', and does it even matter? If it offends 1000 people do those BAME people just have to suck it up because the others don't care?

Maybe you could tell us why you only use the term in conversations like this?

As you have said, out of respect for others opinions and sensitivities you are careful with you words, here is a situation where it has been pointed out this can be insensitive, but you are defending the others just because I am offering the contrary point of view. Get a grip man.

I am not defending the use of the term, nor have I denied that its use can be insensitive, but am just pointing out your continued use of straw man tactics. I have not just joined in as I pointed the same thing about your argument a few days ago...

I've just looked back at that thread, including your contribution, and nowhere in that discussion was it said that BAME was offensive or racist. It was said to be outdated and not appropriate as a descriptor in many cases, but that is not the same thing at all.

As usual you build a spurious strawman argument around something you claim to have been said but that was patently not. No change there then.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

I think the discomfort comes from wondering if racism is actually being stirred up for political purposes

By ‘stirred up’ do you mean exposed?

If a person in a situation which is their comfort zone, in this case at a reception within Buckingham Palace, instigates a conversation that reveals racial prejudice then that’s not the fault of the person on the receiving end.

do we really want to live in a society where you have to watch every syllable you utter in case somebody is offended?

It would be nice to live in a society where people took care not to upset their fellow citizens, yes.
It’s not all that difficult really.

 

[mudsticks]

Racism is political.

It wasn’t stirred up; it actually happened. You can argue, if you must, about the intent or effect of this incident but you can’t really deny what was said, given that neither party has disputed the newspaper account and fulsome apologies have been issued.

Hang on a minute, only last week someone was saying 'sport' was political too ..

How are us old country duffers supposed to keep up with all this politicking .??

I don't know, it was all much easier in yea oldendays - you knew eXaCkeRtLy who you could be rude to and how

Can someone straighten out for me what sort of attack on Craig it is we're witnessing in this thread?



Thanks; I wasn't sure.

Which leads one to wonder - Is an intriguing attack, rather better or worse to receive than a blatantly predictable one ??

 

[Bromptonaut]

Well, this is an intriguing attack on me isn't it?

I don't know the exact number of minority people this offends, maybe you could tell us how many have to be offended before you stop using the term? Do you need 40%, 50%, 60% of people to be offended, or more? Because I would have thought that if it offends 1 person, and can be easily avoided then you should avoid it? That is largely what this whole thread is about, one person saying something that they should not have said and could be easily avoided.

As you seem to not believe me though, you could ask........

Professor Paul Olomolaiye from Bristol Uni https://info.uwe.ac.uk/news/uwenews/news.aspx?id=4206

The Commission on Racial Equalities, https://equalities.blog.gov.uk/2022/04/07/why-we-no-longer-use-the-term-bame-in-government/

So there is my answer, now maybe you could tell us how many people you are happy to offend so you, as white people, can carry on using the term BAME?

You asserted that the term BAME offends a large section of the ethnic minority community.

You were asked to quantify 'large section'.

We're still waiting for an answer.

 

[Unkraut]

Where does this idea that racism is being stirred up for political purposes come from though??

I've actually zoomed out from the particular instance here - which may have been tactlessness rather than racism - considering the bigger picture. Yet the incident does illustrate the bigger picture in that although no actual damage was caused this has caused a massive discussion on social media.

The fact that you've not felt you've particularly had to consider whether your language is discriminatory in social (or other) situations before suggests that your privelege is strong.

I am fairly resistant the white privilege mantra. White males who have actually been oppressors can legitimately be criticised for it, but not those who haven't. Same for white females. And everyone else. In other words I reject identity politics. And I'm not going to allow anyone to try to 'visit the sins of the fathers' on me!

That said I do think you have a moral obligation not to be offensive, i.e. not to deliberately set out to offend, and conversely the person on the receiving end should attempt not to be easily offended (there is no right not to be offended). If it does go wrong and I agree that it can, it should be sorted out between the parties involved and no-one else unless it was in a very public context.

In conclusion I agree this false culture of white ( and male) victimhood is both unhelpful, and in danger of putting progress into reverse.

You know I actually came across a couple of whites (in America!!) who were bleating about being oppressed recently. So yes, it can exist. I'm talking about the victimhood of minorities like women (who are actually a majority), ethnic and sexual minorities. They are victims by virtue of the designation given to them, which is no more true than all white males are patriarchs.

 

[Craig the cyclist]

You asserted that the term BAME offends a large section of the ethnic minority community.

You were asked to quantify 'large section'.

We're still waiting for an answer.

1 is enough isn't it?

Nothing I say will reach your numerical threshold, I would have thought the CRE, a couple of professors and various Guardian journalists and the Labour party all dropping the term because it causes offence would be enough, but clearly not.

Therefore you feel free to keep using a term which you know causes offence to a large number of people on a thread which is all about the outrage around how 1 person has been offended.

You have been blinded on this one because it is me picking you up and you have no way to back down.

 

[matticus]

...
I concede that for simplification, I did reword the exchange to make it more Vicki Pollard / Lauren Cooper to emphasise the relentlessness of the repetition of the question as Lady H refuses to accept any answers other than the one she wants to hear.

Thank-you. Given how important words are in this area, i think it's unhelpful to distort the very few facts we DO have!

It is quite possible that Lady H did not intend to be racist or to slight Ms Fulani in any way and that she is merely out of touch and elderly. It doesn't change the fact that this was not appropriate, and perhaps she is not the right person to be doing what she was doing. That said, my grandma was 103 when she passed away this year and she would not have pursued such a line of questioning for so long. Lady H seems to have no self-awareness at all.

Agree with all that.