Climate Crisis: Are we doing enough?

[stowie]

Im full aware of the various methods of production hydrogen. Those links aren't for domestic applications, It seems you are clueless.... How does Hydrogen suddenly become a liquid without the -253 degrees centigrade it needs to be before it's liquid?

Easy. Pressurise the earth's atmosphere to the 180psi required for hydrogen to liquefy....

 

[stowie]

I'm not sure about exact numbers but i don't think car ownership (as in the number of household that own at least one car) is that much lower in the Netherlands. However car utilization is much different, you don't see big traffic jams during schoolruns every morning because even if it's 500m away, they have to take the suv.
It's more likely to be a traffic jam of bikes lol

But yes Nl-style infrastructure would help, all tough the investment needed would be massive and partly the benefits are being neglected due to ebikes. Youth obese is on the rise in the Netherlands for the same reason. On the other hand, there also needs to change something in terms of enforcement for example, i never in my 10+ years in the uk have someone see to get a fine for driving without lights, in the Netherlands you can be sure to get at least a warning if you don't have an working light on you bicyc;le, sounds like a small detail but it helps a lot. Futher they have recently have new testbanks so then can catch ebikes that go too fast. also something i never see them do here.

I believe the Netherlands car ownership is actually higher than UK. You are right, the Dutch have options because they have invested heavily for decades in cycling and public infrastructure. Plus fostered a culture where public transport isn't viewed as for losers and cycling for weirdos.

UK road enforcement across the board is utterly woeful. There was a statistic that more cyclists in some London boroughs held driving licenses than drivers! Post pandemic, the adherence to road rules has deteriorated to a degree that is extraordinary.

Autonomous cars (if they ever become a thing) would reduce vehicles cluttering roads parked for 90% of the time, but without a change in transport modes used, we will all simply be sitting in traffic jams in taxis without drivers. It doesn't seem like a massive win for humankind.

 

[Deleted member 121]

Easy. Pressurise the earth's atmosphere to the 180psi required for hydrogen to liquefy....

We're gonna need a bigger solar panel....

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

Im full aware of the various methods of production hydrogen. Those links aren't for domestic applications, It seems you are clueless.... How does Hydrogen suddenly become a liquid without the -253 degrees centigrade it needs to be before it's liquid?

Yeah that's how it always goes, any criticism on battery technology(old as time evolved very little as a technology) youre an ''denier'', ''conspiracy theorist'', ''representing the oil companies'' But yes i'm well aware that the links i gave aren't home appliances, that doesn't mean it isn't possible. that doesn't mean the technology should be discredited, there are still many options.

like this: https://newatlas.com/energy/lavo-home-hydrogen-battery-storage/ looks an awfull lot like an at home solar based system then doesn't use batteries but uses hydrogen instead right? You known the thing you said you where ''very'' aware off, doesn't look like you knew this systenm right? i would almost say you sounds a bit Clue-less

 

[Deleted member 121]

Yeah that's how it always goes, any criticism on battery technology(old as time evolved very little as a technology) youre an ''denier'', ''conspiracy theorist'', ''representing the oil companies'' But yes i'm well aware that the links i gave aren't home appliances, that doesn't mean it isn't possible. that doesn't mean the technology should be discredited, there are still many options.

like this: https://newatlas.com/energy/lavo-home-hydrogen-battery-storage/ looks an awfull lot like an at home solar based system then doesn't use batteries but uses hydrogen instead right? You known the thing you said you where ''very'' aware off, doesn't look like you knew this systenm right? i would almost say you sounds a bit Clue-less

That's not the same as....

if you however convert the solar electricity into liquid hydrogen

Which is what you said, you spanner....

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

Which is what you said, you spanner....

Which is nit-picking because what i said and what this does is the same result down the lineand you knew that because you made a remark about needing an bigger solar panel, which was wrong turn oud you need an different one.

But after you done nit picking bottom line stays that my point that, Hydrogen derived from solar energy, is safer and better then a battery. the only reason why it isn;t an full scale challenger yet is because the output is lower, and because some useful idiots keep on repeating the ''it's and explosion danger lie'' the public perception is still shite, probably not so shite as batteries help themselves to get an name for.

 

[Deleted member 121]

Which is nit-picking because what i said and what this does is the same result down the lineand you knew that because you made a remark about needing an bigger solar panel, which was wrong turn oud you need an different one.

But after you done nit picking bottom line stays that my point that, Hydrogen derived from solar energy, is safer and better then a battery. the only reason why it isn;t an full scale challenger yet is because the output is lower, and because some useful idiots keep on repeating the ''it's and explosion danger lie'' the public perception is still shite, probably not so shite as batteries help themselves to get an name for.

This is all büllshit. Not because i can't screw your words together which i understand that English is not your first language, but the contradictions.

The fact is, you don't have one, you probably couldn't get one if you did want one and if you did want one, you wouldn't pay the 27,000 USD that the Australian company are quoting for their system which still uses a lithium battery in it and outputs 5kw. My beloved, now deceased bull mastiff used to fart about that much!

I'd be more than happy for you to test it though if i am wrong. Let me know how it goes!

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

This is all büllshit. Not because i can't screw your words together which i understand that English is not your first language, but the contradictions.

The fact is, you don't have one, you probably couldn't get one if you did want one and if you did want one, you wouldn't pay the 27,000 USD that the Australian company are quoting for their system which still uses a lithium battery in it and outputs 5kw. My beloved, now deceased bull mastiff used to fart about that much!

I'd be more than happy for you to test it though if i am wrong. Let me know how it goes!

There are no contradictions, i claimed for the future solar to hydrogen in whatever form is better then batteries, and has a much lower fire risk, i didn;t say it's an good investment now, hell i didn't even claim they are a good alternative now, but for the future they seem to me an much better alternative than battery technology that hasn't changed all that much in the 20 years it has been very actively researched and developed.

You have done nothing to prove hydrogen has a higher fire risk, you have done nothing to disprove hydrogen would be better all you do is try to insult, in which you onces again fail, and that makes you so salty that you need to dig up post in other topics.. little man, in every sense of the word most likely...
and now you once again nit-pick by claiming the price and the power output, you leave out the part that it last twice as long as those battery pack(who are heavier too, and this thing isn't exactly light either.) and that home batteries didn't fall out of the sky either, they are around for years and their first models didn't perform that much better.. now i known you gonna claim you knew all that.. just gonna blame that on you little man syndrome..


But there is something else, you can fuel hydrogen like you fuel petrol, no waiting to charge just fill up the hydrogen tank and go.. if you have a fleet of lets say electric trucks would it make more sense to wait 8 hrs for the thing to charge or maybe 10minutes to fill the thing up with hydrogen?

 

[Deleted member 121]

There are no contradictions, i claimed for the future solar to hydrogen in whatever form is better then batteries, and has a much lower fire risk, i didn;t say it's an good investment now, hell i didn't even claim they are a good alternative now, but for the future they seem to me an much better alternative than battery technology that hasn't changed all that much in the 20 years it has been very actively researched and developed.

You have done nothing to prove hydrogen has a higher fire risk, you have done nothing to disprove hydrogen would be better all you do is try to insult, in which you onces again fail, and that makes you so salty that you need to dig up post in other topics.. little man, in every sense of the word most likely...
and now you once again nit-pick by claiming the price and the power output, you leave out the part that it last twice as long as those battery pack(who are heavier too, and this thing isn't exactly light either.) and that home batteries didn't fall out of the sky either, they are around for years and their first models didn't perform that much better.. now i known you gonna claim you knew all that.. just gonna blame that on you little man syndrome..


But there is something else, you can fuel hydrogen like you fuel petrol, no waiting to charge just fill up the hydrogen tank and go.. if you have a fleet of lets say electric trucks would it make more sense to wait 8 hrs for the thing to charge or maybe 10minutes to fill the thing up with hydrogen?

So you want ME to prove your claims. Get fücked.

I never said i was disapproving of Hydrogen, im disapproving of your fücked up explanations of stuff you know fück all about. All this pish about little man is like shït off a shovel to me. So i wouldn't waste your time looking more like a dïck than you already do...

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

So you want ME to prove your claims. Get fücked.

i did not say nor imply that.

I never said i was disapproving of Hydrogen,

wow the word is out people!

im disapproving of your fücked up explanations of stuff you know fück all about.

No, you're obsessed with proving me wrong but if you dissect your contributions your actually are talking shitt and claiming you know all, but if you would really known, why don't you just share you're knowledge and dazzle us with facts? you haven't got any.

All this pish about little man is like shït off a shovel to me. So i wouldn't waste your time looking more like a dïck than you already do...

actions speak louder than words little man, and also the last sentence sums it all up doesn't it? you would have disagreed with me whatever i said, fine with me but at least be honest if you're man enough, which i sincerely doubt, little man

 

[icowden]

But there is something else, you can fuel hydrogen like you fuel petrol, no waiting to charge just fill up the hydrogen tank and go.. if you have a fleet of lets say electric trucks would it make more sense to wait 8 hrs for the thing to charge or maybe 10minutes to fill the thing up with hydrogen?

You have a false dichotomy here. Firstly you assume that no progress is going to be made with EV batteries when progress is being made on an almost daily basis. Secondly you are overlooking the massive environmental inefficiencies of producing and shipping the hydrogen. We shouldn't be looking at technologies which make things worse - which hydrogen would almost certainly do. The energy involved in production is huge and the efficiency is not much better that petrol / diesel.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

You have a false dichotomy here. Firstly you assume that no progress is going to be made with EV batteries when progress is being made on an almost daily basis.

Are they? the premise of second hand EV's is still that their basicly a new form off ewast as the by then for sure required new batterypacks are more expensive than the car is worth.
And that battery technology is improving so much we have been hearing for years now, still the downsides haven't really improved much. on paper there is the nuclear waste battery which again on paper would beat all off this issues as it would last longer then 30 years have more power then any other battery etc. yet so far i known nobody has managed to bring the idea from paper into production.

Secondly you are overlooking the massive environmental inefficiencies of producing and shipping the hydrogen.

Why ship something that you can produce with a few solar panels, if you look at the countries where you can have this as a option next to charging for hours petrol and diesel which is the USA you see they produce it there on the spot, either using solar or other technologies, and yes those other technologies are not all that clean absolutely, but battery production isn't either, so if you give one technology the benefit of the doubt by saying ''but it's getting so much better'' so the other technology deserve he same benefit?

We shouldn't be looking at technologies which make things worse

so you're calling to stop mass battery production?

- which hydrogen would almost certainly do.

the experts(few of which i have shared in the links futher up this topic disagree with you, although it has to be said you can create hydrogen chemically which is indeed very dirty, or from solar was is much cleaner and about 80% efficient which isn't that bad.

The energy involved in production is huge and the efficiency is not much better that petrol / diesel.

How about the energy involved vs battery which is the whole process heavier vehicles, expensive and polluting production process killed off second hand market resulting in vehicles that are much earlier written off then current combustion engines as the battery pack with not be economical to replace and of course an much higher risk to live if an BEV catches fire as battery fires are very hard to extinguish

 

[Deleted member 121]

Not only is the Dutchist as thick as mince, he's also a dishonest fantasist, which is of no surprise.

 

[AndyRM]

Not only is the Dutchist as thick as mince, he's also a dishonest fantasist, which is of no surprise.

But mince is lovely!

 

[stowie]

There are no contradictions, i claimed for the future solar to hydrogen in whatever form is better then batteries, and has a much lower fire risk,

It is only a lower fire risk if you are using batteries made of C-4....

i didn;t say it's an good investment now, hell i didn't even claim they are a good alternative now, but for the future they seem to me an much better alternative than battery technology that hasn't changed all that much in the 20 years it has been very actively researched and developed.

You have done nothing to prove hydrogen has a higher fire risk, you have done nothing to disprove hydrogen would be better all you do is try to insult, in which you onces again fail, and that makes you so salty that you need to dig up post in other topics.. little man, in every sense of the word most likely...
and now you once again nit-pick by claiming the price and the power output, you leave out the part that it last twice as long as those battery pack(who are heavier too, and this thing isn't exactly light either.) and that home batteries didn't fall out of the sky either, they are around for years and their first models didn't perform that much better.. now i known you gonna claim you knew all that.. just gonna blame that on you little man syndrome..


But there is something else, you can fuel hydrogen like you fuel petrol, no waiting to charge just fill up the hydrogen tank and go.. if you have a fleet of lets say electric trucks would it make more sense to wait 8 hrs for the thing to charge or maybe 10minutes to fill the thing up with hydrogen?

Hyrdogen is certainly a option which will have its place in the inherently diversified energy production and storage world we need to create post fossil fuels. But it has significant challenges and comparing with battery technology doesn't make sense for a large number of use cases (including cars).

Battery technology advances have been primarily around making it cheaper to produce which has been extraordinarily successful. It is true that other measures have been much slower, but we have got too used to the lightening fast technical progress of things like silicon chips. Most things don't progress quickly, and neither does solving the problems around using Hydrogen for energy storage.

Some companies are promoting Hydrogen. Mostly fossil fuel companies who rather like the idea of it because currently there isn't really another economic game in town other than obtaining it as the by product of the oil refining process. Electrolysis is a fine option for Hydrogen (water is plentiful after all) if one ignores the eye watering energy demands to do so. Then recombining to recoup the energy isn't currently energy efficient leading to system efficiencies well below battery technology. It isn't much good having capacity to store twice as much energy if half of it is lost in the process.

On home energy heating, the problems are huge. Hydrogen, being a tiny molecule, has a capability to leak through pipes as well as being corrosive to the types of pipes in homes. It wouldn't be simply changing the boiler. Storing and moving involves low temperatures or high pressures which brings its own challenges - certainly against natural gas which is a far more amenable chemical.

Now none of this means Hydrogen is a waste of time. It just isn't in the same ballpark as battery energy storage. It may find its way into heavy vehicle transportation as an alternative to hugely polluting fuels. It will have a role in energy management but the challenges are big and batteries are here to stay.