Climate Crisis: Are we doing enough?

Page may contain affiliate links. Please see terms for details.

Rusty Nails

Country Member
OK, cool; so let's look at the main historical success story. Suffragettes.

Do you want to join my letter-bomb club?

There is some argument about how much the militant action of the suffragettes actually helped in getting women the vote. I have read that the impact was waning in the two years before WW1 and that the war provided the impetus for change.

I would not want to join any club that is desperate enough to offer me membership.
 

AuroraSaab

Legendary Member
The fire bomb stuff lost the suffragettes some public sympathy. Also worth noting however that as they didn't have the vote they did not have the means to effect democratic change.

It's Sylvia Pankhurst's birthday today.
 

matticus

Guru
There is some argument about

...whether the earth is round. And the result of Trump's last election fight. etc ... etc ..

Hmm, perhaps you're right. Better to just sit down with a nice cup of tea, better to not do anything hasty. I'm sure you and your wise friends would have sorted out the womens vote thing in good time, no need to rush things ...
 

Rusty Nails

Country Member
...whether the earth is round. And the result of Trump's last election fight. etc ... etc ..

Hmm, perhaps you're right. Better to just sit down with a nice cup of tea, better to not do anything hasty. I'm sure you and your wise friends would have sorted out the womens vote thing in good time, no need to rush things ...

Haste rarely has anything to do with effectiveness...but whatever makes you feel better about yourself I suppose.

Unlike you, who seems to believe these protests will work I, sadly, can make no claim to wisdom but just question whether the tactics of increasing disruption work...which surely is the most important thing. I am not a great believer in the principle that if disruptive protests are not working all that is needed is increasing the disruption, but rather, getting more people onside to actively support the cause, and I am not convinced this is happening.

Ah well, enough of all this excitement of talking to a real live rebel, back to my nice cup of tea and digestive.
 
Last edited:

matticus

Guru
Also worth noting however that as they didn't have the vote they did not have the means to effect democratic change.

Yes, that's a valid point; but most of the likely victims of climate change also get little say in delaying it.

Arguably the Suffragettes were acting completely selfishly; CC protestors are acting for those with little say, who are not even their neighbours.
 

Rusty Nails

Country Member
Very true! But its also true that doing nothing almost always leads to achieving nothing.

Possibly, like that other trite cliché that doing something is better than doing nothing, but so general that it is meaningless.

But governments across the globe, including ours, are starting to make improvements in the reduction of use of fossil fuels so progress is being achieved. Whether it is enough, or fast enough, is the important question, along with whether the protesters are helping speed it up or are just background noise.
 
Last edited:

Rusty Nails

Country Member
It isn't. They are. HTH.

It doesn't.
 

matticus

Guru
Is a jolly protest better than disruption? After the The Big One weekend, Sky News interviewed Zoe Cohen and Dr Charlie Gardner(https://research.kent.ac.uk/conservation-science/person/charlie-gardner/) of XR

Zoe had previousl been to court after damaging the Shell head office facade in London. She's now prevented from disruptive protests by the court, or she'll go to prison.
Dr Charlie was quite clear that they needed the attention-grabbing protests to get media exposure, in parallel with the more happy-clappy stuff

(about 5mins in:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWJJR7GFeBY
)

 

mudsticks

Squire
Possibly, like that other trite cliché that doing something is better than doing nothing, but so general that it is meaningless.

But governments across the globe, including ours, are starting to make improvements in the reduction of use of fossil fuels so progress is being achieved. Whether it is enough, or fast enough, is the important question, along with whether the protesters are helping speed it up or are just background noise.

But governments across the world are also very susceptible to lobbying from those profiteers who would see business as usual to continue.

It's not as if everyone gets a fair chance to influence policy, the big influential mega polluting mega corps have the ear of governments all the time, it's not like they only get a once in five years chance to have their say.

Petrochemical companies, and other industries are making so much revenue from polluting the commons that they can afford full time paid lobbyists.

Those of us resisting, and calling for change do not have access to the same political or fiscal resources, so we have sometimes to resort to other measures to get attention drawn to how urgently this problem needs tackling.
Of course it was urgent decades ago - but again, who had influence??
Who had a say??

Us green obsessed eco-loons??

Fwiw disruptive protest has been shown to have an effect - although it might not always be admitted.

After us unwashed 'jobless🙄' hippy tree huggers made a right old nuisance of ourselves protesting, many new road building projects got quietly shelved.

We might not have stopped the ones in progress, but overall the effect was less road building than would have happened otherwise

Of course you'll always get some resistance from some quarters, but on the whole seeing people - even so called 'respectable' educated people, doctors, teachers, scientists, lawyers (farmers even) go out on a limb, put their liberty on the line, brings home the urgency of the message, to a wider public.

Plus it keeps the topic in the the kind of papers, where dry old reports from climate scientists alone, would never get a mention.

Yes, that's a valid point; but most of the likely victims of climate change also get little say in delaying it.

Arguably the Suffragettes were acting completely selfishly; CC protestors are acting for those with little say, who are not even their neighbours.
Yup, it's not just about future generations, who have no say now, although it is definitely that.

It's also about all those countries where CC is already a dangerous reality, but where there populations have little or no chance of influencing policies in the heaviest polluting 'developed' nations.

Especially unjust, when they've not done the emissions in the first place.
 

albion

Guru
https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2023/may/04/electric-vehicles-suvs-us-vehicle-fleet
'show that the largest EVs are actually worse than more compact gas cars due to the emissions embedded in their creation.'

In some states, none Suvs
These things just piss people off and allow bad actors to create a them and us mentality - exactly as they have with motorists and cyclists.

Educate don't lecture.

The sustainability measures being enacted in companies across the UK are filtering down to the shop floor and being noticed. Lots of small impacts like these are more likely to change long term behaviours.

It is mighty difficult. The UK has a tendency to follow the US where uneducating the peoples has become much the norm in politics. Especially on the right.
 

Rusty Nails

Country Member
Fwiw disruptive protest has been shown to have an effect - although it might not always be admitted.

After us unwashed 'jobless🙄' hippy tree huggers made a right old nuisance of ourselves protesting, many new road building projects got quietly shelved.

We might not have stopped the ones in progress, but overall the effect was less road building than would have happened otherwise

Of course they can work, and there is nothing at all wrong with the principle of disruptive protest, a la tree-huggers, but imo for it to work it is best if it targets or directly affects those who the protest is aimed at...like the developers, government departments or fossil fuel companies etc.
While gaining widespread publicity or a scatter gun approach seems to be an objective of some protests I have never gone along with "there is no such thing as bad publicity" (Gerald Ratner?), and have doubts that disruptive protest that annoys/inconveniences those people they should be drawing to their cause works...even if the people demonstrating are " 'respectable' educated people, doctors, teachers, scientists, lawyers (farmers even)" that the great unwashed should be impressed by.
 

matticus

Guru
Of course they can work, and there is nothing at all wrong with the principle of disruptive protest, a la tree-huggers, but imo for it to work it is best if it targets or directly affects those who the protest is aimed at...like the developers, government departments or fossil fuel companies etc.
While gaining widespread publicity or a scatter gun approach seems to be an objective of some protests I have never gone along with "there is no such thing as bad publicity" (Gerald Ratner?), and have doubts that disruptive protest that annoys/inconveniences those people they should be drawing to their cause works...even if the people demonstrating are " 'respectable' educated people, doctors, teachers, scientists, lawyers (farmers even)" that the great unwashed should be impressed by.

Do developers not also drive on the M25?
Do gov staff never watch the snooker??

The relevant head offices are all in Central London, so ANY disruption there will be in their eyeline.

P.s. it was someone before Ratner, try again. No not the Suffragettes! ;⁠-⁠)
 
Top Bottom