Climate Crisis: Are we doing enough?

[BoldonLad]

I think the argument has always been about how free they should be. There will always need to be some rules but its easy and tempting for governments and supra-national bodies to go too far and stifle growth/profitability.

Regulation and control is done by people (all be it, usually, within some organisation).

People are flawed, so, invariably, regulation and control fail, sooner or later.

Ultimately, to me, the market is like the tide, and, as King Canute found, it/they will do what they will do. 😂

 

[Psamathe]

I think the argument has always been about how free they should be. There will always need to be some rules but its easy and tempting for governments and supra-national bodies to go too far and stifle growth/profitability.

Regulation and control is done by people (all be it, usually, within some organisation).

People are flawed, so, invariably, regulation and control fail, sooner or later.

Ultimately, to me, the market is like the tide, and, as King Canute found, it/they will do what they will do. 😂

For me the problem stems from different aims of business and society. Most businesses seek high profits & growth for the benefit of the few wealthy investors. Society does not seek the same. Regulation is normally intended to protect the interests of society, real people, etc.

I accept that not all regulation achieves its intended outcome though in general it's about protecting the best interests of society which I see as a good thing.

These days politicians seem to blame regulation even when there is no such evidence eg

UK government admits almost no evidence nature protections block development
Whitehall analysis provides no data or research to support the government argument that environmental legislation holds up building
...
The analysis by Whitehall officials provides no data or research to back up the government’s central argument that it is environmental legislation that holds up building.

Business lobbies Government (something Labour see particularly ready to accept) so it can make higher profits, Government concocts some lies and ... gets found out. But Labour push ahead removing protections for our environment.

Ian

 

[BoldonLad]

For me the problem stems from different aims of business and society. Most businesses seek high profits & growth for the benefit of the few wealthy investors. Society does not seek the same. Regulation is normally intended to protect the interests of society, real people, etc.

I accept that not all regulation achieves its intended outcome though in general it's about protecting the best interests of society which I see as a good thing.

These days politicians seem to blame regulation even when there is no such evidence eg

Business lobbies Government (something Labour see particularly ready to accept) so it can make higher profits, Government concocts some lies and ... gets found out. But Labour push ahead removing protections for our environment.

Ian

How many large corporations (in UK, or anywhere else in the world) are owned by "a few" wealthy investors?

I am not saying there are none, but, many of the large shareholders , in large publicly listed companies, are Pension Funds.

I suppose the discussion may hinge on the definition of words like "few", "large", "wealthy".

 

[Stevo 666]

For me the problem stems from different aims of business and society. Most businesses seek high profits & growth for the benefit of the few wealthy investors. Society does not seek the same. Regulation is normally intended to protect the interests of society, real people, etc.

I accept that not all regulation achieves its intended outcome though in general it's about protecting the best interests of society which I see as a good thing.

These days politicians seem to blame regulation even when there is no such evidence eg

Business lobbies Government (something Labour see particularly ready to accept) so it can make higher profits, Government concocts some lies and ... gets found out. But Labour push ahead removing protections for our environment.

Ian

To add to what BoldonLad says, a lot of our pensions and managed investments are tied up these companies which are allegedly just in the hands of a few wealthy investors.

 

[Stevo 666]

Regulation and control is done by people (all be it, usually, within some organisation).

People are flawed, so, invariably, regulation and control fail, sooner or later.

Ultimately, to me, the market is like the tide, and, as King Canute found, it/they will do what they will do. 😂

Part of the problem is that governments and politicians think that they can do a better job than the market.

 

[Ian H]

Part of the problem is that governments and politicians think that they can do a better job than the market.

'The Market' doesn't seem to care about the sick, the poor, or any other economically inactive sector of society, so what constitutes a 'better job' is dependent on what outcomes you want for the country.

 

[Stevo 666]

'The Market' doesn't seem to care about the sick, the poor, or any other economically inactive sector of society, so what constitutes a 'better job' is dependent on what outcomes you want for the country.

Hate to tell you but the market isn't a sentient being so it can't care. However the tax from the increased profits and economic activity can be used by politicians to fund things. Hence it's better for all concerned for governments and politicians to get out of the way as far as possible.

 

[BoldonLad]

'The Market' doesn't seem to care about the sick, the poor, or any other economically inactive sector of society, so what constitutes a 'better job' is dependent on what outcomes you want for the country.

The Market is not a single entity, it is a collection markets/entities.

Depends what you mean by "economically inactive", even the sick, the poor, the elderly, unemployed have SOME money they can be parted from, so, there is a market for items which they may wish/need* to buy.

A market may care LESS about the sections of the population who have less money to spend on whatever products/services that particular market is attempting to sell, but, once the low hanging fruit has been harvested, then, the next level down becomes attractive.

* need is an emotive word, it is usually used incorrectly, in place of "want", "desire", "wish".

 

[BoldonLad]

Further to that, I do not think it is possible for growth to be never ending without destroying the planet as far as humans are concerned.
At which point growth will definitely cease.

The biggest "growth" area to impact climate / resources is human population growth IMHO.

Fairly sure this has never happened in practice, but, personally, I don't see why overall growth is essential to the capitalist system.

Some elements grow, whilst others diminish, that does not mean that the overall system grows, but, simply the the distribution, within the system changes.

I don't have the Economist skills to support that theory, fortunately, I dont think the Economists do either. 😂

 

[BoldonLad]

Part of the problem is that governments and politicians think that they can do a better job than the market.

Not only that, but, Politicians have their own(short term) axe to grind (ie re-election / popularity).

 

[Ian H]

once the low hanging fruit has been harvested, then, the next level down becomes attractive.

I think the trickle down theory has been thoroughly disproved.

 

[Ian H]

Hate to tell you but the market isn't a sentient being so it can't care.

Which is my point.

 

[Pblakeney]

Fairly sure this has never happened in practice, but, personally, I don't see why overall growth is essential to the capitalist system.

...and yet countries/markets/companies are always seeking growth.
How many times have you heard of politicians banging on about growing the economy?

 

[BoldonLad]

I think the trickle down theory has been thoroughly disproved.

I am not talking about “trickle down” to “the masses”, I am simply pointing out that any sensible organisation takes the easy picking first, then, goes after the more difficult stuff.

 

[BoldonLad]

...and yet countries/markets/companies are always seeking growth.
How many times have you heard of politicians banging on about growing the economy?

Why would I (or anyone with a brain) take notice of what politicians say?
Most of this forum is dedicated to saying how thick and useless politicians of various hues are 😂