Eating dead animals - the pros and cons

[Fab Foodie]

UK government report.
https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...ty-report-2021-theme-2-uk-food-supply-sources

However, we already grow most of our grain. Sure, with our new climate, maybe we can do better on the fruit. A couple of Avocado stones we planted years ago chose this year to germinate... Perhaps some orange groves too.

But, in the short term, any surplus from cutting back on animal feed might be better used by way of export, or even for biofuels.

Rewilding isn't exactly urgent, it'll take a long time for the biodiversity to return. I'd say stopping loss of currently existing habitats is far, far, more important.

The biggest medium to long term risk to the UK’s domestic production comes from climate change and other environmental pressures like soil degradation, water quality and biodiversity. Wheat yields dropped by 40% in 2020 due to heavy rainfall and droughts at bad times in the growing season. Although they have bounced back in 2021, this is an indicator of the effect that increasingly unreliable weather patterns may have on future production

We'll have to disagree on the rewilding - I think it is important and it really doesn't take very long at all to make an impact.

Currently growing crops as we do we're using fertilisers, pesticides and lots of tractor diesel etc. is not the way forward. If we have surplus of grains for example, maybe instead of exporting we could grow both more diverse crops, without industrial chemicals, with healthier soils, less polluted rivers and more diversity of nature - again an environmental win-win...the report you posted states clearly UK soils need improving.....

There is no good argument for maintaining current levels of animal production for food, and there should be no expectation that food should be so cheap.

 

[Ian H]

...there should be no expectation that food should be so cheap.

I'm assuming you'd agree that everyone should be able to afford to eat (thinking of the pressures on food banks at the moment).

 

[Ian H]

Fair point, but you don't need to go full Monbiot on the rewilding agenda to recognise that you can't restore any kind of balance while sheep are preventing tree and shrub regrowth - even if you're not trying to re-establish temperate rainforest, you might want to do something about the cycle of flood and drought exacerbated by bare hills. And upland sheep farming is perversely incentivised. I love lamb, but I'm prepared to content myself with just a few eyewateringly expensive chops from the salt marshes every year, in return for a higher treeline and a more diverse upland ecology.

A bit of sideways searching threw this up, which is along those lines - https://www.rewildingbritain.org.uk/blog/the-welsh-uplands-death-or-resurrection

 

[Deleted member 49]

I'm assuming you'd agree that everyone should be able to afford to eat (thinking of the pressures on food banks at the moment).

By paying them a living wage.Nobody should have to rely on food banks.

 

[Fab Foodie]

I'm assuming you'd agree that everyone should be able to afford to eat (thinking of the pressures on food banks at the moment).

Absolutely. Food banks are an inexcusable effect of poor government, not food costs.
And the reasons for that are complex as well.
Mass production has delivered an abundance of cheap food, the cheapest food we have ever had, not necessarily good food, and not necessarily good for the planet. There is also massive waste at both production and consumption level. There are rising rates of childhood obesity. As a percentage of income food has never been cheaper.
The whole way we consider and value food as individuals and as a nation needs re-appraising....

 

[lazybloke]

The biggest medium to long term risk to the UK’s domestic production comes from climate change and other environmental pressures like soil degradation, water quality and biodiversity. Wheat yields dropped by 40% in 2020 due to heavy rainfall and droughts at bad times in the growing season. Although they have bounced back in 2021, this is an indicator of the effect that increasingly unreliable weather patterns may have on future production

We'll have to disagree on the rewilding - I think it is important and it really doesn't take very long at all to make an impact.

Currently growing crops as we do we're using fertilisers, pesticides and lots of tractor diesel etc. is not the way forward. If we have surplus of grains for example, maybe instead of exporting we could grow both more diverse crops, without industrial chemicals, with healthier soils, less polluted rivers and more diversity of nature - again an environmental win-win...the report you posted states clearly UK soils need improving.....

There is no good argument for maintaining current levels of animal production for food, and there should be no expectation that food should be so cheap.

Surely we need more countries exporting a surplus of grain? This would address yield variations and reduce over-reliance on Ukrainian grain. The global benefits would include improved food security and price stability for all.

But where to grow these crops?
Climate change, inundation of arable land, desertification, displacement of coastal communities, changing weather patterns - these are massive issues in progress now - they will cause mass migration and increasing shortages in finite resources like land, fresh water and food, in our lifetime. The outcomes could be very ugly indeed, within a generation or two, at most.

 

[Fab Foodie]

Surely we need more countries exporting a surplus of grain? This would address yield variations and reduce over-reliance on Ukrainian grain. The global benefits would include improved food security and price stability for all.

But where to grow these crops?
Climate change, inundation of arable land, desertification, displacement of coastal communities, changing weather patterns - these are massive issues in progress now - they will cause mass migration and increasing shortages in finite resources like land, fresh water and food, in our lifetime. The outcomes could be very ugly indeed, within a generation or two, at most.

Hi Lazybloke
I think you're missing the point regarding reduction in land useage for cattle. Converting kgs of grain to kg of cows is about 10% efficient at best and the conversion of cow to Human is again approx 10% (Q10 Factors).
Cut out the cow (the Middle-man if you like), grow crops on that land for humans and you're already feeding 10 times the number of humans than cattle - that's enough land to have food security, exports, better environmental/low impact agriculture and rewilding r....
It's a no brainer!
Get rid of animals for food and we're in clover....

 

[AndyRM]

Hi Lazybloke
I think you're missing the point regarding reduction in land useage for cattle. Converting kgs of grain to kg of cows is about 10% efficient at best and the conversion of cow to Human is again approx 10% (Q10 Factors).
Cut out the cow (the Middle-man if you like), grow crops on that land for humans and you're already feeding 10 times the number of humans than cattle - that's enough land to have food security, exports, better environmental/low impact agriculture and rewilding r....
It's a no brainer!
Get rid of animals for food and we're in clover....

That's possibly the clearest way I've read things explained when it comes to agriculture. Thank you.

 

[lazybloke]

Hi Lazybloke
I think you're missing the point regarding reduction in land useage for cattle. Converting kgs of grain to kg of cows is about 10% efficient at best and the conversion of cow to Human is again approx 10% (Q10 Factors).
Cut out the cow (the Middle-man if you like) and you're already 10 times better-off in land use for feeding humans - that's enough land to have food security, exports and rewilding the world over....
It's a no brainer!
Get rid of animals for food and we're in clover....

Hi Fabbers,
Ah, I hadn't appreciated how little of the grain harvest was actually for human consumption. I just googled. Astonishing.

I'd be less concerned about cattle if they only ate grass, but swathes of dead land across Europe this summer are a reminder that demand for animal feed is extremely volatile/unpredictable from year to year as well as season to season.

 

[Fab Foodie]

Hi Fabbers,
Ah, I hadn't appreciated how little of the grain harvest was actually for human consumption. I just googled. Astonishing.

I'd be less concerned about cattle if they only ate grass, but swathes of dead land across Europe this summer are a reminder that demand for animal feed is extremely volatile/unpredictable from year to year as well as season to season.

...and much grassland used for cattle, which can also be used for other crops, so more potential gains....

 

[All uphill]

Quite

I would just add... this 'solution' as with the previous 'solutions' requires international cooperation on a scale we have come no where near achieving todate..... although I recognise it is needed, can't see it happening, famine and war are much more likely, sadly IMHO.

I agree international coordination to reduce the human population is a non-starter, but it is clear that people in countries where women can control their reproduction, and there is an adequate social provision for old age, choose to have fewer children. Italy and Japan are striking examples.

So anything we can do to spread those values is likely to reduce or reverse population growth.

 

[BoldonLad]

Hi Lazybloke
I think you're missing the point regarding reduction in land useage for cattle. Converting kgs of grain to kg of cows is about 10% efficient at best and the conversion of cow to Human is again approx 10% (Q10 Factors).
Cut out the cow (the Middle-man if you like), grow crops on that land for humans and you're already feeding 10 times the number of humans than cattle - that's enough land to have food security, exports, better environmental/low impact agriculture and rewilding r....
It's a no brainer!
Get rid of animals for food and we're in clover....

True, until the (human) population increases, to absorb the readily available and sustainable food supply.