Gender again. Sorry!

[AndyRM]

That's as maybe, but you can't see them without joining the graphic design group.

Mea culpa.

Here's a selection.

 

[icowden]

Mea culpa.
Here's a selection.

Nice, although I'd have thought a better question is, is the one on the right male because it looks a bit like a willy or just for older people with more saggy boobs?

Apropos of nothing, on my way out on holiday to Malaysia we had the use of a Lounge at Heathrow. When I popped into the cubicle in the mens bathroom I was astonished to find it entirely soaked in water (seat, bowl, cistern etc) as if someone had had a shower. I reported it to staff who explained that they have a lot of Muslims who fly to Saudi and they tend to be over liberal with the bidet hose and their religion precludes them from clearing up the mess.

 

[albion]

The comments on this picture are wild.

View attachment 6622

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/R8QqM9aNkkiBsNfR/

I think the argument is that they made a pigs ear rather than a balls up of it.

 

[AndyRM]

There's not much of an argument.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Not in the UK but in Oz a transwoman has won damages over being excluded from a women only app:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c07ev1v7r4po

 

[AndyRM]

That's going to have some massive repercussions, potentially.

I don't think the defendant did herself many favours during the proceedings.

 

[AuroraSaab]

This is the logical conclusion of self id. There are now no single sex spaces or services in Australia. There is nowhere women can go, meet together, play sport together, be medically treated or counselled, or even seek refuge, with an expectation that no men will be present.

 

[AndyRM]

Whilst I appreciate your concerns, that seems a bit drastic.

 

[AuroraSaab]

The judgement seems to indicate that 'woman' is not a biological term and that people can change their sex. On what grounds would such a man as Roxy Tickle be refused entry to any single sex space or service intended for women?

 

[AndyRM]

The judgement is that Tickle has been a victim of indirect discrimination, which is pretty clear and seems accurate enough to me.

Saying that "there are now no single sex spaces or services in Australia" is way over the top. And to me at least seems like you're framing transgender people as constantly trying to access women's only spaces which is also an exaggeration.

As I've said before, there is definitely a middle ground where most people are prepared to have a reasonable discussion, but the outliers (on both sides) are the ones who gain traction to the detriment of everyone affected.

 

[AuroraSaab]

The judgement is that Tickle has been a victim of indirect discrimination, which is pretty clear and seems accurate enough to me.

What's the basis of the discrimination though? It's that as a transwoman he wasn't allowed access to a women only service. I don't see how this is anything other than opening the door to claims from any man who self identifies as a woman, whether it's sport or services.

Saying that "there are now no single sex spaces or services in Australia" is way over the top. And to me at least seems like you're framing transgender people as constantly trying to access women's only spaces which is also an exaggeration.

No guaranteed women's only spaces and services because companies and providers will leave themselves open to compensation claims if they refuse men access.

There's an Australian women's league football team with 5 men playing for them, so yeah, there's plenty of men trying, and succeeding, in accessing women only spaces.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...68531/amp/Flying-Bats-womens-grand-final.html

 

[AndyRM]

What's the basis of the discrimination though? It's that as a transwoman he wasn't allowed access to a women only service. I don't see how this is anything other than opening the door to claims from any man who self identifies as a woman, whether it's sport or services.



No guaranteed women's only spaces and services because companies and providers will leave themselves open to compensation claims if they refuse men access.

There's an Australian women's league football team with 5 men playing for them, so yeah, there's plenty of men trying, and succeeding, in accessing women only spaces.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...68531/amp/Flying-Bats-womens-grand-final.html

You didn't say guaranteed initially, which changes the tone of your original post quite a bit. And this goes back, again, to how on earth you can guarantee a completely women's only space?

The basis of the indirect discrimination is pretty clear from the ruling I think.

I've heard about The Flying Bats. Their website makes it quite clear that they are a women's and non binary team, who have also encouraged trans and gender diverse people to get involved.

https://www.theflyingbats.com/

There are loads of teams like this around the world and have been for some time.

 

[icowden]

I've heard about The Flying Bats. Their website makes it quite clear that they are a women's and non binary team, who have also encouraged trans and gender diverse people to get involved.

Which is entirely fair. However they are playing teams which only have biological women in and generally thrashing them. This is creating the perception that what they are doing is not fair. So either all of the women's teams need to recruit transwomen at which point many would argue that this is no longer a women's category but a mixed sport, or the Flying Bats need to be excluded from women only competitions on the basis that they have an unfair advantage.

The issue would appear to be not that transwomen want to play sport in the gendered team that they identify with, but that when they do there would appear to be a clear and unfair advantage that they give to the team.

 

[AndyRM]

Which is entirely fair. However they are playing teams which only have biological women in and generally thrashing them. This is creating the perception that what they are doing is not fair. So either all of the women's teams need to recruit transwomen at which point many would argue that this is no longer a women's category but a mixed sport, or the Flying Bats need to be excluded from women only competitions on the basis that they have an unfair advantage.

The issue would appear to be not that transwomen want to play sport in the gendered team that they identify with, but that when they do there would appear to be a clear and unfair advantage that they give to the team.

All of which is true. The problem though, is that the league in which the Flying Bats could play doesn't exist. And it would only be a matter of time, if sport were to go down that route, where there would be endless categorisations of ability and it would just end up being ridiculous.

Which leads me to an idea I quite like the idea of: the Enhanced Games, which as far as I know is still on the cards. Athletes can just batter in with whatever drugs and hormones they like and see what happens.

Tragedy almost certainly, and it's an Orwellian nightmare of an idea really, but it would get rid of the genetics debate around sporting advantage.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You didn't say guaranteed initially, which changes the tone of your original post quite a bit.

I said an expectation that no men will be present. You can no longer go to any women only space or service and expect it to be free of men because legally they have access.

And this goes back, again, to how on earth you can guarantee a completely women's only space?

If you have the right to women only spaces in law you can enforce that right. 'How on earth can you guarantee' spaces separated by age? By having the legal right to exclude those who are too old/young. Women are no longer guaranteed that right in Australia.

The Flying Bats play in the Women's league though not a unisex league. I think women who sign up for a Women's league are entitled to play with only women. The fact is they could play on a team appropriate to their sex but choose not to.

Just because a league doesn't exist that accommodates their feelz doesn't mean women should have to accommodate them.