Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

Oh you are the real expert in everything aren't you.

As Dr Bellringer points out, you are not somebody even worth speaking to.

Read the comments from his patients under the video. And learn. Until then sit down.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Neither you nor your genital surgeon are experts in suicide. As you know, the UK's leading expert in suicide, Louis Appleby, a psychiatrist with 40 years experience in this field, has asked the media and people like you to stop promoting the suicide and 'transition or die' narrative because it causes suicidal ideation in others.

He says it is not based on evidence. Who to believe? The suicide expert or you? The suicide expert or the guy who makes £300k a year from these private surgeries alone?

It is abhorrent that you continue to promote this narrative.

As to satisfied customers, those who are dissatisfied with their surgery results are often lost to follow up, just like many detransitioners are. I suggest people go look on Reddit. There are many distraught post surgery trans identifying men who are not happy with their outcome. It's grim reading.

I won't be sitting down any time soon, don't worry.

 

[monkers]

Neither you nor your genital surgeon are experts in suicide. As you know, the UK's leading expert in suicide, Louis Appleby, a psychiatrist with 40 years experience in this field, has asked the media and people like you to stop promoting the suicide and 'transition or die' narrative because it causes suicidal ideation in others.

He says it is not based on evidence. Who to believe? The suicide expert or you? The suicide expert or the guy who makes £300k a year from these private surgeries alone?

It is abhorrent that you continue to promote this narrative.

As to satisfied customers, those who are dissatisfied with their surgery results are often lost to follow up, just like many detransitioners are. I suggest people go look on Reddit. There are many distraught post surgery trans identifying men who are not happy with their outcome. It's grim reading.

I won't be sitting down any time soon, don't worry.

I didn't say anything about suicide.

But I did notice your crap about cosmetic surgery. Maybe you didn't hear him say that the vagina of a trans woman is sensate end to end, and that our's are not.

Anyway don't trouble me further, you are just consumed by hate.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Your video did. He said 'one in five'. That's not based on evidence and anybody vulnerable might hear that and think 'If I don't get hormones/surgery I'll probably kill myself'. It's highly irresponsible to promote that narrative when body dysphoria resolves in many with psychological support rather than drugs and surgery.

It can only be cosmetic. It's not a vagina, it's an inverted penis. If there isn't enough penile material - eg because the patient took puberty blockers - then they use part of your bowel to construct an artificial canal. However it looks and feels, it's really not a vagina.

 

[monkers]

Your video did. He said 'one in five'. That's not based on evidence and anybody vulnerable might hear that and think 'If I don't get hormones/surgery I'll probably kill myself'. It's highly irresponsible to promote that narrative when body dysphoria resolves in many with psychological support rather than drugs and surgery.

It can only be cosmetic. It's not a vagina, it's an inverted penis. If there isn't enough penile material - eg because the patient took puberty blockers - then they use part of your bowel to construct an artificial canal. However it looks and feels, it's really not a vagina.

Blah, blah, blah. ''I know better than the experts''. Just shut up.

 

[Bromptonaut]

UK adults over 18 are perfectly free to pursue cosmetic procedures, including having their genitals removed. I hope his patients have had comprehensive counselling to understand the risks and complications though.

He claims a 20% suicide rate if patients don't get surgery, which simply isn't true and which can promote suicidal ideology in young people.

The quality of studies into the satisfaction of patients after such surgery is of poor quality and often short term, but at £23k a time I'm sure this doctor explains all that before he picks up the scalpel to remove healthy body parts.

What is the correct figure for people seeking surgery, or other, help in connection with gender incongruence who commit or attempt suicide?

 

[monkers]

What is the correct figure for people seeking surgery, or other, help in connection with gender incongruence who commit or attempt suicide?

I respect your position enormously Bromptonaut, but I think you should ask somebody better placed to be informed.

Louis Appleby, who Aurora mentioned, has complained that he is not free to talk about the suicide rates in our prisons. On that basis he refused to take part in one presentation. Likewise the NHS is known to have suppressed suicide rates, stating low ball numbers, while parents of victims have said that the NHS had been sent coroner's reports, seemingly to have been ignored or discounted.

Aurora is particularly irritating because she is attempting conflate the remarks made by Appleby who was talking about the suicide rates in under 18s in order to attempt to undermine James Bellringer, who is a straightforward honest chap, and was clearly talking about his patient group, the rates in adults of all ages.

Not that I think that Bellringer was clear as could be on everything because he was committed to giving short answers. One could easily press the view that he offers surgery to young people on their 18th birthday. In practice that is not the case, under 18s rarely can be offered hormones before becoming 18, and then need to have been taking them for a year before being offered surgery, and only then if their hormone levels were suitably adjusted. Then their are the long waiting lists that he spoke about, along with the fact that there are only four surgeons practising vaginoplasty in the UK.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I respect your position enormously Bromptonaut, but I think you should ask somebody better placed to be informed.

That'll be you then, I suppose.

Louis Appleby, who Aurora mentioned, has complained that he is not free to talk about the suicide rates in our prisons. On that basis he refused to take part in one presentation.

Which shows he isn't inclined to speak about things beyond his expertise because he's an ethical man. He was happy to review the suicide stats of the Tavistock and Portman however because that's within his expertise. He has spent nearly 40 years studying suicide. It included over 18's on the waiting list.

Likewise the NHS is known to have suppressed suicide rates, stating low ball numbers, while parents of victims have said that the NHS had been sent coroner's reports, seemingly to have been ignored or discounted.

No. This is your unevidenced claim. Just like the claim you'd seen coroner reports was.

Aurora is particularly irritating because she is attempting conflate the remarks made by Appleby who was talking about the suicide rates in under 18s

It included over 18's. See above.

... in order to attempt to undermine James Bellringer, who is a straightforward honest chap, and was clearly talking about his patient group, the rates in adults of all ages.

He doesn't say it's his group. Where does Bellringer's claim of 1 in 5 come from? It's a bit irresponsible to be chucking out anecdotal reports from patients on a complex issue like suicide, isn't it?

You don't even know where the 1 in 5 claim originated do you?

 

[AuroraSaab]

What is the correct figure for people seeking surgery, or other, help in connection with gender incongruence who commit or attempt suicide?

It's not clear because the research is of poor quality. Most don't even use the same definition of 'thought about suicide' or 'attempted suicide'. Often the studies/surveys don't confound for other factors, the subjects are self selecting, and the follow up times are short. See the discussion/results section of this analysis of 23 studies:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10027312/

The 1 in 5 claim comes from the annual online survey by the Trevor Project, a US lgbt group. It has been picked up and repeated, even in parliament iirc, despite being based on a self selecting group, who responded to ads on social media.

Some research shows higher suicide rates after surgery, some show reduced rates, but the research is not of good enough quality to make the claims that are being made. As such it's irresponsible to promote a narrative that maintains young people will kill themselves without drugs or surgery.

 

[monkers]

No. This is your unevidenced claim. Just like the claim you'd seen coroner reports was.

This what parents are saying.

I posted links to coroner reports. You tried to tell everyone they were just media reports. Although there were a couple of media reports included in the list, there were coroner reports.

On the one hand you've claimed that the government have tried to suppress data because it is inconvenient to them. That is when it has suted your purpose. Now you claim the opposite when it does not suit your purpose.

Appleby has even complained that he received instructions to suppress official data.

I don't happen to agree with Appleby. He tries to separate out the gender identity issues from other mental health difficulties. If you listen to Bellringer he recognises the trans people face incredibly tough times, especially when denied services or being kept waiting too long.

It is clear, at least to me with a long history of working with young people, that if anxiety and/or depression has causation in difficulties with gender identity, that you can not simply dismiss cause of death was due to the adjacent mental health difficulty, and not to to the circumstances that led to those mental health difficulties.

And just because Appleby is a recognised authority on suicide, it doesn't necessarily make him neutral in any opinions concerning trans people.

What is clear is that Bellringer is a scientist, a surgeon, and a compassionate man dedicated to improving the lives of his patients - they all tend to say as much, and I'm close to quite a few of them. He is not just an academic theorist, he is been at the frontline of this for many years, having provided thousands of surgeries judged by his patients as ''lifesaving''. No he did not restore physical health to physically ill patients, he provided surgery to those who were desperate to affirm their identity.

On the other hand there are the academics such as Stock, Forstater et al, who unlike Bellringer are motivated by compassion and the motivation to help people are driven by the neurological condition of hatred of a harmless minority group.

As for cosmetic surgery. There are plenty of cisgender people who clamour for surgery almost as if they are participants in some beauty pageant. Trans women do not have surgery in order to display the contents of their knickers to a genital fascinated public. As Bellringer says, the majority have no desire to go and have sex with others. This is as N has already told you about herself and what she knows of her friends, she, and they, have no interest in sexual partners. What she has is between her and health providers, and nothing to do with you.

Your lurid claims about it all being fetishistic is for the birds.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Becuase of my general interest in legal matters I get emails whenever a Coroner issues a Prevention of Future Deaths report.

I am quite sure that I've seen ate least one relating to suicide where issues related to gender incongruence, and in particular, delays in providing treatment/support have been highlighted.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Coroner reports have been reported in the media as mentioning that delays in treatment might have been contributing factors - it's not clear that this meant delay in getting appropriate psychological support or a specific delay in getting puberty blockers/csh/surgery. My point is that Monkers claimed to have seen coroner's reports but hasn't.

At least 2 of those young people who took their own lives were already on puberty blockers or cross sex hormones via a private provider.

It's simply irresponsible to promote a high rate of suicide and suicidal ideation if you don't get drugs/surgery when the claimed figures are not well evidenced. The suicide narrative has been used to pressurise parents with 'Would you rather have a living daughter or a dead son?' and is frightening children unnecessarily.

I don't doubt that some doctors believe themselves to be acting in their patient's best interests, even the ones who make a lot of money from it. Irrespective of that, all medical treatments should be evidenced based, not touted as a solution to mental disresss on the basis of poor data.

 

[monkers]

My point is that Monkers claimed to have seen coroner's reports but hasn't.

The coroner's reports are available on the internet and I have previously linked to some of them on this forum. As usual you resort to lies and personal deprecation because you have nothing else.

Quite clearly the available reports serve to show the concern of coroners. It is also known that these reports have been sent to the NHS.

Also this is a diversionary tactic of yours because you couldn't listen to the facts presented by Bellringer.

 

[AuroraSaab]

The coroner's reports are available on the internet and I have previously linked to some of them on this forum.

No, you haven't. On the 6th of June you posted a list consisting of news reports, inquest coverage by the campaign group Inquest, and reports of inquests from judiciary.uk. None of them were actual coroner reports.

Some of them did suggest that a wait for treatment - doesn't say whether that means psychological support, drugs, or surgery - was a contributing factor.

UK coroner reports are not available to freely access on the internet. You haven't seen any coroner reports, you've only read reports of inquests. It's not the same thing.

None of these 'coroner reports' are evidence that a wait for treatment was the only factor in the death, let alone evidence that surgery would solve the problem.

As usual you resort to lies and personal deprecation because you have nothing else.

You make claims and when pressed for evidence resort to slurs rather than producing bona fide evidence. Every expert who disagrees is unqualified, or a government stooge, or a right wing plant. You want unevidenced medical treatment for kids and young people.

Quite clearly the available reports serve to show the concern of coroners. It is also known that these reports have been sent to the NHS.

They show concern about the lack of resources for mental health and lack of oversight in specific cases.

Your continued push of the suicide narrative is very irresponsible and goes against the advice of experts and groups like the Samaritans.

 

[monkers]

Your continued push of the suicide narrative is very irresponsible and goes against the advice of experts and groups like the Samaritans.

This is wrong. I do not push anywhere for a suicide narrative. I am not aware of any trans youth on this forum for me to be attempting to influence trans youth. What I say is supportive of trans people of all ages. What you do is seek to demonise them. They would despair at your narrative, not at mine.

On this occasion you have incorrectly said that James Bellringer is wrong.

You have taken the suppressed version of data for trans youth, rather than the data for adult services that James Bellringer would have been referencing as his patient group. As usual you seek to mislead the debate, and make false accusations against people who expose you.

I anticipate your denial.

You push the narrative that trans people remain safe in this country. However ...