Gender again. Sorry!

[CXRAndy]

No we should never pander to pronouns.

But it is the bbc, they are the most captured woke organisation. What do you expect

 

[multitool]

Say what you want about CXR but she's certainly persistent.

(sorry, not pandering to her pronouns)

 

[AndyRM]

In other news, I'm genuinely interested in whether people think that there should be a change in the way that we report crime.
This is a news story about a "transwoman" who committed suicide after being charged with the rape of a girl under 13 and causing a 5 year old girl to engage in sexual activity, sexual assault on a 3 year old boy and causing a 3 year old boy to engage in sexual activity.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y920n0zj4o

I'm not sure we should be protecting the pronouns of mentally ill rapists. This is a man. A male rapist and paedophile. Personally I think it does a disservice to those who actually are transwomen and need to be so for their own mental health benefits.

It's an interesting question. Personally I'd go with ditching the gender identity and just refer to people like that as paedophiles and rapists, which may be a bit simplistic but I think makes sense.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Refer to him as a rapist and a paedophile before conviction? This trial hadn't even started.

I'm not sure we should be protecting the pronouns of mentally ill rapists. This is a man. A male rapist and paedophile. Personally I think it does a disservice to those who actually are transwomen and need to be so for their own mental health benefits.

What makes you say he was mentally ill? What makes you say he wasn't 'actually a transwoman and needed to be so for his own mental health benefit'?

How are you telling the difference?

This logic that he can't be genuine because he was a sex offender makes no sense. Was he genuine until the day he was charged?

 

[monkers]

In other news, I'm genuinely interested in whether people think that there should be a change in the way that we report crime.
This is a news story about a "transwoman" who committed suicide after being charged with the rape of a girl under 13 and causing a 5 year old girl to engage in sexual activity, sexual assault on a 3 year old boy and causing a 3 year old boy to engage in sexual activity.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y920n0zj4o

I'm not sure we should be protecting the pronouns of mentally ill rapists. This is a man. A male rapist and paedophile. Personally I think it does a disservice to those who actually are transwomen and need to be so for their own mental health benefits.

The link you provided does not say that this person died by suicide.

I'm going to stick to my previously expressed views on the forums. The legal status of the person should be expressed as being contemporaneous with their crimes, and thereafter dealt with as such.

I've also previously said that if we are to understand any patterns of behaviour it will be helpful to differentiate the terms 'transgender' and 'trans woman'. The mixing of umbrella terms and specific terms is sure to lead to class errors. The terms were once more specific but the recent blurring of them is not helpful to understanding.

 

[AuroraSaab]

This one does.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/uk/trans-woman-rape-maddison-wilson-portsmouth-southampton/

So respect for your pronouns and your legal status should depend on whether or not you were opening living as the other sex at the time of the offences? That makes no sense at all and goes completely against the idea that 'people know who they are' that has been endorsed throughout this thread.

It's convenient though because it allows you to abandon the dodgy ones as not being transgender.

 

[monkers]

This one does.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/uk/trans-woman-rape-maddison-wilson-portsmouth-southampton/

So respect for your pronouns and your legal status should depend on whether or not you were opening living as the other sex at the time of the offences? That makes no sense at all and goes completely against the idea that 'people know who they are' that has been endorsed throughout this thread.

It's convenient though because it allows you to abandon the dodgy ones as not being transgender.

It's a definite maybe ...

The provisional cause of death was hanging and will be investigated - however the death was not being treated as suspicious, a spokeswoman for Hampshire Coroner's Office said.

The sadness for me, to express the obvious, is that the trial can not continue with the outcome that justice can not be reached.

Without a trial and a finding of guilt, I'm unable to label this person a 'monster' which what I'd otherwise like to be able to do.

And by the way, my point was not about 'protecting pronouns' if your post was addressing my point. It was more deeply considered than that, which make me believe that you are up to your usual tricks of trying to win points over who you perceive as opponents rather than taking matters seriously.

 

[icowden]

The link you provided does not say that this person died by suicide.

It says:-

A spokeswoman for Hampshire Coroner's Office said the provisional cause of death was hanging.

So it's either suicide or he was strung up. Suicide seems more likely though

I'm going to stick to my previously expressed views on the forums. The legal status of the person should be expressed as being contemporaneous with their crimes, and thereafter dealt with as such.

Fair enough. So we agree that this is a man.

I've also previously said that if we are to understand any patterns of behaviour it will be helpful to differentiate the terms 'transgender' and 'trans woman'. The mixing of umbrella terms and specific terms is sure to lead to class errors. The terms were once more specific but the recent blurring of them is not helpful to understanding.

So what is the difference between a transgender woman and a transwoman?

 

[icowden]

So respect for your pronouns and your legal status should depend on whether or not you were opening living as the other sex at the time of the offences? That makes no sense at all and goes completely against the idea that 'people know who they are' that has been endorsed throughout this thread.

To be fair to @monkers it does make a certain amount of sense. In this example the offences date from 2011 to 2020 when I strongly suspect that this bloke was a man. If he were properly transgender and taking cross-sex hormones, Monkers has previously argued that his sex drive would have been considerably reduced. Assuming that is the case, it is therefore less likely that a transwoman undergoing hormone treatment would commit sexual crimes.

That said, I'd argue that this bloke not only wasn't a transwoman at the time of the crimes, he isn't now. In my view he is likely to be an illustration of bloke using the concept of transgenderism as a perversion or kink.

 

[AuroraSaab]

In this example the offences date from 2011 to 2020 when I strongly suspect that this bloke was a man.

What has changed in the meantime that made him no longer a man? Bought the hairband he wears in the photo? Can you honestly not see how daft this is, basing his being a woman (with all the access that could entail) on a date on a calendar or what drugs he was taking?

If he were properly transgender and taking cross-sex hormones, Monkers has previously argued that his sex drive would have been considerably reduced. Assuming that is the case, it is therefore less likely that a transwoman undergoing hormone treatment would commit sexual crimes.

Again, this is just daft. Only 'proper' or genuine if on hormones? Sexual crimes don't just involve penises either.

That said, I'd argue that this bloke not only wasn't a transwoman at the time of the crimes, he isn't now. In my view he is likely to be an illustration of bloke using the concept of transgenderism as a perversion or kink.

So people don't know who they are then? How are we supposed to know then when these men seek to share changing rooms, refuges, jail cells with women whether they are 'proper' or not?

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

To be fair to @monkers it does make a certain amount of sense. In this example the offences date from 2011 to 2020 when I strongly suspect that this bloke was a man. If he were properly transgender and taking cross-sex hormones, Monkers has previously argued that his sex drive would have been considerably reduced.

A high sex drive and being an rapist and child molestor are two separate things. Yes rapist can have a high sex drive but it's not linked, it's popular amongst bodybuilders to inject with very high doses of testosterone's for some years now, it has not lead to an increase of rapes specialicaly amongst this group.

Assuming that is the case, it is therefore less likely that a transwoman undergoing hormone treatment would commit sexual crimes.

That said, I'd argue that this bloke not only wasn't a transwoman at the time of the crimes, he isn't now. In my view he is likely to be an illustration of bloke using the concept of transgenderism as a perversion or kink.

But i tought those being transgender had fought a years long internal battle so their actual transitioning was/is much later then the fact they are trans because they are that from birth, you seem to imply this person was like a person on death row finding god, and getting all the benefits that come with that.
But that sounds a bit weird in this context, almost as weird as words plofkip (blowup chicken, refering to woman joining isis and reportingly wear bomb/suicide belts at the time) and words as treitervlogger(bullyvlogger), pokémonterreur, trumpisme. But after last year the word ''TRANSITIESPIJT '' (regretting transition) the word of the year election was cancelled.
So yeah i have no idea why you would suggest someone would abuse the whole cult surrounding transitioning

 

[CXRAndy]

Here we go again

 

[monkers]

So what is the difference between a transgender woman and a transwoman?

You are aware that you are asking a gay woman who spent many happy years in gay and lesbian bars in the company of many from that community.

So a brief history from my own perspective over a period of time from my gay bar life and of raising a trans child.

There are two sets of labels operating concurrently in the UK. One set of labels are those used by the community themselves, the other set is that operated by the mostly heteronormative social scientific and legal communities. There is some overlap and cross talk.

The first thing to really understand beyond the skin deep approach is that every individual is different. To use the term 'transgender' is as difficult as to use the term 'British' and then say 'therefore all the same'. It is as logical as the concept that ''all politicians are the same'' while clearly they are not.

Within the LGBT community individuals have different drivers. Within the T part of that, individuals variously identify with certain labels, be that HPW (hairy panty wearer), CD (cross-dresser), TV (transvestite), T-girl. The individuals in these groups think of themselves as men, they typically identify as men, but while being 'dressed' they like to think of themselves as women.

Otherwise there are by comparison few whose self knowledge tells them that they are the other gender. This exists somewhere within the brain, not as a mental illness, but as a core belief. This is rather different to a taught or indoctrinated belief such as a religious belief or even a philosophical belief that gender identity does not exist. The belief is intrinsic to their being, rather than extrinsic like a thing learnt by the teaching of others. It causes these individuals to seek social acceptance as the other gender. To their own senses, most will say there are two sexes and two genders. This inconveniently flies in the face of those who willfully say that trans people believe there are over 200 gender identities. The social scientific community labelled these people 'transsexuals', often shortened to 'TS' at one time.

This led to the heteronormative community adopting the dichotomy of T people being either TV or TS without troubling to remember that we all have the right to our personality and to exist as an individual. Further people believed that TS people were either pre-op or post-op without any other consideration of how a male body could be made more feminine or a female body be made more masculine.

The standing joke was ''what's the difference between a TV and TS? One rushes home from work to put a bra on, while the other rushes home from work to take her bra off.'' It pretty neatly sums up the difference.

The term 'transsexual' has over the last two decade changed from a term given by the social scientific community and once accepted by the T community to one that is now rejected by the T community as outdated. This is because TS women do not identify as natal or biological women; their self knowledge is that they are not in that group, hence their preference for 'women' in the context of society, and as 'trans women' when a distinction from 'women' becomes necessary. No trans woman believes that while undergoing a prostate exam that she is a cisgender woman.

In my very first post ever on NACA I cautioned about the word 'transgender'. It is problematic for a number of reasons. It is an umbrella term that includes every individual, regardless of their drivers to present whether in private of in public, whether very part time or whole time as the other or another gender identity. For some, the motives are very sexual, while others are asexual. Many trans women, by which I mean those who are legally women are either asexual or live with another trans women, or in some circumstances both, living as life partners rather than romantic partners.

There has been a trend in usage which rather than provide clarity instead blurs the margins of understanding.

I've had many exchanges on the forums here about this, but the distinctions are important. The term 'trans woman' developed from the rejection of the terms 'transsexual' and TS. At no point did 'trans woman' include those who identify as CD, TV, T-girl etc. This mostly was voiced during the prison debate, in which the fiction that transgender = trans women committing offences and were therefore housed in the female prison estate.

I did and still feel that the confusion of the terms was willfully untruthful and deliberate in order to drive the moral panic, in which campaigners were ultimately successful, not without a little assistance from then Conservative ministers.

 

[monkers]

Here we go again

And still you know nothing.

 

[CXRAndy]

And still you know nothing.

I certainly know what a woman is
👍
Unlike you, despite allegedly being a lesbian 🤣