Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

Let's go round again.
Pippa York or Caitlyn Jenner? Choose your anecdotal evidence.
Or we could do science? Or we could refer to a Canadian study of 'grey literature' which Emily Bridges was going to support their court case but doesn't seem to have managed to do.

Let's do science. My point is that upper body strength measurement is the favoured metric of male advantage. It is measured by hand grip strength. Male bodies typically but not always are larger in size, but the muscular power comes from the forearm. Racing cyclists have skinny arms and typically lack upper body mass. Heavy upper body skeletal and muscular mass is a disadvantage. However the science says that because male bodies have higher hand grip strength that gifts male cyclists the advantage.

We also know that smaller bodies are more aerodynamic than larger bodies.

Now factor in the lived experience of those like Pippa York who say that the hormone regime makes muscle recovery slower leading to reduced training load.

Then you begin to understand the bias.

Consider further the petty fascist claim that there is no such thing as male and female brains, but also claim that trans women retain an advantage over natal women such that they must be excluded from playing chess.

The basis of the claims becomes more lurid and more ridiculous, and frankly insulting to women.

 

[CXRAndy]

You ignored larger lung capacity, larger heart, more muscle mass than females. Cycling has little to do with hand grip or forearm. It's primarily cardio aerobic fitness.

 

[First Aspect]

I have a big nose.

This is an advantage.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Let's do science. My point is that upper body strength measurement is the favoured metric of male advantage. It is measured by hand grip strength. Male bodies typically but not always are larger in size, but the muscular power comes from the forearm. Racing cyclists have skinny arms and typically lack upper body mass. Heavy upper body skeletal and muscular mass is a disadvantage. However the science says that because male bodies have higher hand grip strength that gifts male cyclists the advantage.

Male advantage is calculated by many metrics not just grip strength.

German cyclist Robert Forstemann. His presumed advantage is apparently based only on having a stronger hand grip than women, folks.

We also know that smaller bodies are more aerodynamic than larger bodies.

And yet small, skinny women cyclists aren't as fast as men, including the ones who identify as women. The men on hormones do better in the Women's category than they did in the Men's ie retained male advantage, even if slightly reduced.

Now factor in the lived experience of those like Pippa York who say that the hormone regime makes muscle recovery slower leading to reduced training load.

Vested interest and still does not mitigate male advantage.

Then you begin to understand the bias.

Consider further the petty fascist claim that there is no such thing as male and female brains, but also claim that trans women retain an advantage over natal women such that they must be excluded from playing chess.

They are excluded because some women's comps were set up to encourage female participation in areas in which they have been historically under represented. You're against book prizes for black authors too then I suppose in case it means black people are thick.

 

[Ian H]

Robert Förstemann, a German track cycling champion, has a rare genetic condition called myostatin-related muscle hypertrophy,

 

[AuroraSaab]

Chris Hoy doesn't though. Why doesn't Victoria Pendleton build thighs this big? It would've helped surely.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

Yeh right, upper body strength, measured by hand grip strength alone, is used to say (scientifically of course) that all male-born people have male-born advantage in all sports including pub games and chess.

I'm sure there is some science around to support that theory but if you just look at result of topsport you see that the men classes have higher times regardless if it is an leg or arm intensive sport, regardless whether a iron grip is important or not.
ifwe then look at bodybuilding the differences becomes neglectable as soon as they get into the single digit body fat regions, although the trade off for biological women is much higher then biological men. Especially if it's including the classes where (some or all )steroids are allowed, men on steroids can have a reasonable normal life later on if they come off or reduce dose. but for women some changes like for example a deeper/weird voice will never go away. Biological women also have to do much more efforts in general to get and maintain these single digit body fat levels.

What these so-called scientific studies do not show is what trans athletes experience - that is recovery times following intense activity that are so increased due to the high levels of hormone intake that the sports standards demand, that the capacity for recovery is reduced below that of natal women.

There are 1001 researched methods tweaks on recovery times, but it's besides the point my point is in some women classes you see women that have transitioned compete and despite all the factors that usually should mean they are beyond their prime, they still are either on top or very close to the top.
Might well be that they take longer to recover maybe even much longer, doesn't change the end result right?

Note also that while Fatima Whitbread is against trans inclusion in sport, also claims that at the age of 71 she can still beat any male competitor - go figure.

Mike Tyson also said he could beat Logan Paul , turned out a bit different, i mean athletes with bold claims are nothing new right?

 

[monkers]

Chris Hoy doesn't though. Why doesn't Victoria Pendleton build thighs this big? It would've helped surely.

View attachment 7845

Chris Hoy isn't a trans woman you moron.

 

[monkers]

I'm sure there is some science around to support that theory but if you just look at result of topsport you see that the men classes have higher times regardless if it is an leg or arm intensive sport, regardless whether a iron grip is important or not.
ifwe then look at bodybuilding the differences becomes neglectable as soon as they get into the single digit body fat regions, although the trade off for biological women is much higher then biological men. Especially if it's including the classes where (some or all )steroids are allowed, men on steroids can have a reasonable normal life later on if they come off or reduce dose. but for women some changes like for example a deeper/weird voice will never go away. Biological women also have to do much more efforts in general to get and maintain these single digit body fat levels.

We are considering what science says about any differences between trans women and natal women in sporting performance. Comparisons between natal men and natal women are not the consideration. The point I'm making is that handgrip strength is important to some sports, it isn't relevant to all sports, so why make it the parameter where it doesn't apply?

 

[monkers]

Mike Tyson also said he could beat Logan Paul , turned out a bit different, i mean athletes with bold claims are nothing new right?

Athletes with bold claims are nothing new. Could Fatima Whitbread take on any man when she is 71 - as good as she was I think it as unlikely as you. The point is though that she makes this claim while also making the claim that trans women do not belong in women's sport. So as I said ''go figure''. Two opposing bold claims without evidence from the same former athlete do not make compelling evidence that trans women can not compete in women's sport.

 

[Ian H]

Victoria Pendleton complained that her muscles were airbrushed out in publicity photos.

 

[monkers]

I have a big nose.

This is an advantage.

It's probably quite aerodynamic!

 

[monkers]

Perspectives ...

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...rvived-everything-and-became-a-cycling-legend

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/philippa-york-hoping-her-story-can-help-others/


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTPKa6HgKL8&t=38s

 

[CXRAndy]

Monkey

You are talking out of your arse.

Everyone knows men are stronger, faster than women.

TiMs are not getting into the women's sport for much longer.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Victoria Pendleton complained that her muscles were airbrushed out in publicity photos.

Did they airbrush her times out? Cos fantastic athlete that she was, her times were not as fast as male cyclists over the same events.

The biggest determinant of performance in most sports is sex.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitne...ale-cyclists-need-to-train-differently-344365

Millions of dollars are spent on trying to make running shoes that help you go a fraction of a second faster. Millions of dollars are spent developing bike saddles that weigh a few grams less. It's laughable that anybody thinks something as obvious as male body advantage can be dismissed as unrelated to performance in sports.