CXRAndy
Veteran
If it hasn't already happened, monkey has probably stuck her head on the sand re your post 🤣
Gender again. Sorry!
- Thread starter theclaud
- Start date
Page may contain affiliate links. Please see terms for details.
If it hasn't already happened, monkey has probably stuck her head on the sand re your post 🤣
monkers
Squire
You have to do more than acknowledge them, you have to acknowledge and consider them in the round.
The complaints and the media coverage about unfairness in international sport have been long-standing.
When the Russians were winning, people said that it was about Russian state intervention and the abuse of children forcing them into harmful training routines, taking them away from their families etc.
Then it became China and regimes there. The narrative was that there was not a level playing field. And of course they are right, state sponsorship skews outcomes, population numbers skews outcomes, and using the eggs from a gold medal winning athlete and the sperm from another gold medal winning athlete will produce a generation of super athletes.
None of us can be surprised in the UK where two successful and financially secure gold medal athletes produce and raise kids in their own image, with the contacts, lived experience, knowledge of their parents, along with private schooling, private coaching, home gyms etc turn out to be themselves to be world-class athletes. In fact we might be surprised if the do not.
The same applies not to sport but everything else. Great musicians raise kids who in turn become great musicians. And so it goes, thems the breaks.
Now scientifically prove to me, that trans women with testosterone that has been lowered to that of natal women for a period of two years have a greater advantage than being born in the lottery of getting the gift of your parents genes. Good luck with that.
monkers
Squire
Yes they do, but they don't just rely on sex do they. They consider sex, age, and equipment - and you know why. What they don't adjust for is the fact that the women's data is a much smaller data set than the men's.
When I was a teenager, the cycling club I was a member of had over 300 members. Of that 300 the 20 or so women who did ride were social riders, but the majority were there to support husbands and sons. The majority variously made tea and baked cakes acted in club official roles etc. I was the only female TT rider in that club at that time and unable to break into the male clique.
Last edited:
icowden
Squire
And performance enhancing drugs.
And performance enhancing drugs.
This would seem to do it.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9331831/
Transwomen have a strong pubertal advantage in terms of muscle mass, size, reach etc. You cannot reformat a man to make them a woman biologically. They remain a man.
monkers
Squire
According to the records on Wiki, the 43 year old Hubbard failed to lift a weight from the floor, came last with DNF as the result. But you interpret that as male advantage distorting the results. Only you could.
2020 Olympics
See also: Weightlifting at the 2020 Summer Olympics – Women's +87 kgThe International Olympic Committee (IOC) let the International Weightlifting Federation (IWF) set the requirements for transgender weightlifters to compete at the Olympics.[25] Hubbard met all the requirements and on 21 June 2021, the New Zealand Olympic Committee (NZOC) confirmed that Hubbard had been selected for the New Zealand Olympic team[4] to compete in the women's +87 kilogram category, becoming the oldest weightlifter to qualify for the games.[26][27] This decision resulted in Hubbard becoming the first openly transgender athlete to be selected to compete in the Olympic Games.[28][29] Transgender athletes have been allowed to compete at the Olympics since 2004, with the current criteria in place since 2015.[29]
The inclusion of Hubbard was welcomed by supporters within the trans community as a step towards more inclusion at the Games.[30][31][28] It was criticised by others. Some athletes, scientists and campaigners said that she had a biological advantage due to having gone through male puberty.[25][32][10] Weightlifters including Anna Van Bellinghen and Tracey Lambrechs were critical of Hubbard's selection,[33][34][35][36][28][4][37] while Charisma Amoe-Tarrant, who qualified in the same category, supported Hubbard's participation.[38] There were public expressions of support from New Zealand Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, and sport minister Grant Robertson.[28][4] The IOC's Medical and Scientific Director Richard Budgett, has advocated for more research into trans participation in sports.[29]
At 43 she was the fourth oldest weightlifter to compete at the Olympics and was seen as a medal contender.[4] In front of a large contingent of media Hubbard struggled, with three failed snatch lifts, placing last in her group.[39][40][41] Afterwards she thanked the IOC, IWF, NZOC and all her supporters in New Zealand for their encouragement and help throughout the competition.[42][43] Later Hubbard hinted at retirement, saying that age had caught up with her.[44]
Major results
| Olympic Games | ||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | 2 | 3 | Rank | 1 | 2 | 3 | Rank | |||||
| Year | Venue | Weight | Snatch (kg) | Clean & Jerk (kg) | Total | Rank | ||||||
| 2021 | +87 kg | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | DNF |
AuroraSaab
Shaman
Testosterone has already done it's job in adult men. Lowering it later doesn't undo the male body advantage. You must think people are blind.
Many sports don't require lowering of testosterone anyway. They allow full self id for men who want to compete in the women's category.
AuroraSaab
Shaman
Getting to the Olympics at all at 43, when average age of competitors for weightlifting is mid 20's, him having previously given up the sport for 10 years, was achieved exactly because of his male advantage. The fact that he didn't win a medal doesn't show anything. Fairness in sports isn't decided by outcome. 'It would only be unfair if he won' is nonsense.
monkers
Squire
Thanks (I think). But to pose the question again ...
Does your link do that?
I note the bit about ''the masculinization of the brain'' though. Remember Aurora has assured us endlessly that there are no such thing as ''lady brains''.
You are no doubt familiar with the argument about innate gender identity. Have you just provided potential evidence that in trans women, the brain skips the masculinization process? Aurora will be furious with you!
monkers
Squire
From the accounts given, in the absence of a more competitive athlete Hubbard became that small country's best hope.
According to the quoted extract from the Wiki article, Hubbard was the fourth oldest weightlifter to have ever competed at the Olympics.
After this failure, Hubbard retired saying that she is now too old to compete. The so-called male advantage overcoming all odds didn't happen.
CXRAndy
Veteran
Father time waits for no man, even TiM
monkers
Squire
Ah, the traditional sport of moving the goalposts.
In swimming those who are tallest, and those with the biggest feet tend to go fastest. Something I once read written by a sports scientist suggested that a tall woman with large feet will most usually be faster in the water than a short man with proportionately size feet.
There can never be a level playing field in any sport, meaning that inevitably there will always be outliers, and always people prepared to abuse data in some attempt to demonise others.
Can you instead attempt the question I asked?
AuroraSaab
Shaman
I don't think there are. The research in the link says men who identify as women retain the same structural features in the brain as other men when you look at their MRI scans. I guess they are just the same as other men after all.
See above. Same brain structure as other men according to this research. They don't have the structural features of women, or anything inbetween. They are exactly as other men on their brain MRIs, and taking hormones doesn't change that according to this paper.
monkers
Squire
At least try to be consistent.
According to you then, there are no such things as ''lady brains'' but there are such things as male brains even though MRI don't detect the differences.
AuroraSaab
Shaman
Your question is a false one. It's whataboutery. We can't analyse the effect of genetics completely because individuals are not genetically the same (except twins). What we can do is look at hundreds of thousands of sports performances and work out the common factors that determines who is fastest, strongest etc. The one that correlates to high performance, in almost all sports, is having a male body.
AuroraSaab
Shaman
It's possible to detect structural differences between male and female brains with scans. This research says men who identify as women have the same brain structure as other men.
Whether these structural differences have any meaning in terms of gender identity or patterns of behaviour (other than testosterone fuelling aggression) is questionable. I would say not. See neuroscientist Gina Rippon for more details, ie there's no evidence of 'lady brain' in terms of behaviour, and according to this research what organic differences there are in women in terms of brain structure aren't found in men who identify as women. So they're just the same as every other man, as you'd expect really.
