Gender again. Sorry!

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Getting a GRC is anything but straightforward. It's certainly not a certificate anybody can get. It needs evidence sufficient to convince a judicially chaired panel that a certificate should issue.
That 'evidence' consists of 'living in your acquired gender for 2 years'. There is no definition of what that means so in fact anybody can get one. Having a criminal conviction isn't a bar to getting one.

Given that a GRC is a piece of paper, that it doesn't affect risk factors, and that nobody is allowed to ask if you have one anyway, how does it function as a safeguarding mechanism in everyday practical situations?

You're just just doubling down on your basic view that men who have made an effort should be rewarded, even if it's detrimental to women.

I know, or know of, at least three people who've gone through the process. It's like wading through treacle.
Women's spaces aren't rewards for men who have shown a commitment.
 
So everyone has to have a CRB check each and every time they want to do something?
No. We carry on using the safeguarding procedures that have worked pretty well for decades. One of which is having single sex services and facilities in certain situations.
 

classic33

Missen
No. We carry on using the safeguarding procedures that have worked pretty well for decades. One of which is having single sex services and facilities in certain situations.
So, we're back to relying on the people using those facilities to be respectful(social contract).

The alternative is to kick off, cause the provider to say "enough" and either shut up shop or set the one area aside.
 
That 'evidence' consists of 'living in your acquired gender for 2 years'. There is no definition of what that means so in fact anybody can get one. Having a criminal conviction isn't a bar to getting one.

Rather more too it then that see sections 2 and 3 in the Gender Recognition Act.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/2
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/3

Why would having a criminal conviction, of itself, be a bar? Obviously sexual offending might be an issue and one would expect the medical evidence for the Panel to cover the issue.

What you assert is closer to the provisions that would have prevailed in Scotland.
 
Why would having a criminal conviction, of itself, be a bar? Obviously sexual offending might be an issue and one would expect the medical evidence for the Panel to cover the issue.

Because on this forum a GRC is being touted as something that is meaningful in terms of safeguarding. Something that differentiates the genuine men-who-say-they-are-women from the other men-who-say-they-are-women.

I don't think a conviction should be a bar - because I don't think a GRC/gender identity should override sex in law, or as as a detetminant in safeguarding. It should be a document that means something only to the holder. It should carry no more weight than that in terms of safeguarding.

Again though you seem to think making the effort should entitled the recipient to have a free pass into women's spaces as a reward.
 

classic33

Missen
Why would having a criminal conviction, of itself, be a bar? Obviously sexual offending might be an issue and one would expect the medical evidence for the Panel to cover the issue.
Because men only apply for one(A GRC) after they've been caught, possibly even convicted
Suppose the trans man is convicted of sexual offences after acquiring their GRC. What then?
 

monkers

Shaman
You know that men with a GRC are counted in the female stats and that most trans identifying men don't bother getting a GRC. This is your pivot get out clause: they're only trans now if they have a GRC.

A certificate can't work as a safeguarding protocol when nobody is allowed to ask for that certificate, which you can't in most day to day practical situations. A GRC proves nothing in relation to safeguarding. It's not a CRB check.

The Roxy Tickle case is ridiculous. The court was told that Sall Grover should have known Tickle was a 'woman' because the picture he submitted had long hair and a low cut blouse.
Woman = costume in Australian law.

I haven't introduced a pivot - the European Court of Human Rights did that years ago.

It's perfectly normal to have words that typify cohorts. Transgender women are men who like to do their thing occasionally. Transitioners are those who are undergoing a process of change. Trans women are typically those who have a GRC, although some trans women have undergone all of the steps but choose not to apply for a GRC, typically because of the spousal veto.

A certificate is not intended to be a DBS check. There's a process for that which applies to anyone. As a trans woman in the women's toilets, I don't know the criminal history of every woman that walks in. You need to ask yourself, why is it that you don't need to be concerned about cis women in the toilet, but only trans women. The risks are no different.

The risk assessment / safeguarding concerns are merely a rouse. The privacy concern is also a rouse, since the private space in a toilet has a door capable of being locked from the inside. There is no loss of dignity having to wash your hands next to a trans woman, and no increased risk.

I didn't mention Roxy Tickle - but you've raised her case because you object to her appearance. Do all women need to pass your standards test? Or just the women with a trans history?
 
Because on this forum a GRC is being touted as something that is meaningful in terms of safeguarding. Something that differentiates the genuine men-who-say-they-are-women from the other men-who-say-they-are-women.

I don't think a conviction should be a bar - because I don't think a GRC/gender identity should override sex in law, or as as a detetminant in safeguarding. It should be a document that means something only to the holder. It should carry no more weight than that in terms of safeguarding.

Again though you seem to think making the effort should entitled the recipient to have a free pass into women's spaces as a reward.

Effort, although there, is not relevant.

GRA says that the acquired gender applies for all purposes (with a handful of exceptions). The issue now is that the Supreme Court have decided that for Equality Purposes it does not.

That needs to be sorted but I doubt Starmer has the balls to do it.
 
Because men only apply for one(A GRC) after they've been caught, possibly even convicted
Suppose the trans man is convicted of sexual offences after acquiring their GRC. What then?

They are, and presumably remain, in their acquired gender of female and when convicted would be sentenced as such.

The Prison Service have processes for that as outlined upthread my Monkers (#1)
 

classic33

Missen
They are, and presumably remain, in their acquired gender of female and when convicted would be sentenced as such.

The Prison Service have processes for that as outlined upthread my Monkers (#1)
Not so much what the prison service would do, more the perceived notion being pushed that it's only men who transition. Women transitioning to a man(And as we've been told more than once, all men are the problem. So by her own rule/definition this includes trans men.) doesn't seem to have sunk in.
We've returned to Victorian values here. But only a select few.
 
It's perfectly normal to have words that typify cohorts. Transgender women are men who like to do their thing occasionally. Transitioners are those who are undergoing a process of change. Trans women are typically those who have a GRC...

Objectively there is no difference between any of those. They are all men. The cohort they belong to is 'men'. How they identify is a personal belief.

You need to ask yourself, why is it that you don't need to be concerned about cis women in the toilet, but only trans women. The risks are no different.
Men are a safeguarding risk to women and girls. The presence of males in certain situations impinges on women's rights to privacy and dignity. 'Transwomen' are men - the risk and imposition remain the same as with other men.

The privacy concern is also a rouse, since the private space in a toilet has a door capable of being locked from the inside. There is no loss of dignity having to wash your hands next to a trans woman, and no increased risk.

So no reason why these men can't go into male facilities then and change their clothes or wash their hands next to the other men.

I didn't mention Roxy Tickle - but you've raised her case because you object to her appearance. Do all women need to pass your standards test? Or just the women with a trans history?

No, they just need to be women. It was suggested in court that Tickle is a woman because he had long hair. It's you that thinks adopting stereotypes of femininity counts for something.

You know all this but you keep producing the same tired arguments, now with the 'true trans' pivot, in the hope that miraculously people will go back to where we were a few years ago when every pro trans statement had to be taken at face value and nobody was allowed to question how other people's rights were affected. That time has passed.
 

monkers

Shaman
Objectively there is no difference between any of those. They are all men. The cohort they belong to is 'men'. How they identify is a personal belief.

Transgender women mostly identify as men. They have desire to transition. They are not users of women's spaces. Every now and again, men do go out dressed as women, for example, going to see The Rocky Horror Show at the theatre. And then you should expect it. Transitioners are covered under the act on the grounds of ''gender reassignment''. Trans women with a GRC have always had the rights covered as women until the Supreme Court made a ruling that is in contravention with the UK Human Rights Act, the GRA, what parliament intended with the EqA, and the European Court of Human Rights.

What you call ''a personal belief'' is a person's self-knowledge. If we are discussing personal beliefs, personhood, and personal knowledge, then who I am is nothing to do with you.
 
Transgender women mostly identify as men. They have desire to transition. They are not users of women's spaces.
Eddie Izzard doesn't have a GRC but uses women's spaces, ditto India Willoughby.

What you call ''a personal belief'' is a person's self-knowledge. If we are discussing personal beliefs, personhood, and personal knowledge, then who I am is nothing to do with you.

Who/what we call ourselves isn't a private matter once it starts to affect others.
 
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