Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

As usual this is wrong. That's pure prejudice, and nothing more.

Not my logic at all. In fact more your logic since people in your group have argued that trans women could use a facility for people with a disability.

Having a different gender identity is not a disability.

On the contrary, it's you that are claiming that transwomen are somehow different from other men. Statistically they have the same pattern of male offending. You are making the extraordinary claim that they are different from other men, and demand we give them privileges we don't give other men.

I haven't argued that transwomen should use disabled spaces. They shouldn't. Those are for disabled people. There could however
be a 3rd unisex space that anyone could use. This sensible solution isn't acceptable to transactivists though because it provides no validation.

If we're doing the association thing again, you should see some of the stuff 'your group' put out.

The requirement is to put systems in place that are reasonable, proportionate, and non-discriminatory.

And keeping single sex spaces is all those things. It doesn't discriminate against trans people, because it is a proportionate discrimination against men. All men.

Your way of working says, that children can cause harm to each other, we must prevent them from being in contact with humanity.

No, it doesn't. It says that in certain situations, and for good reasons, it's understandable to want to keep the sexes separate, even when it's harmless kids.

Keeping children apart in the sports changing rooms and showers isn't discriminatory, nor is it keeping them from being in contact with humanity. I know you find it impossible to be civil, but you could work on the hyperbole.

Risk assessment would have kept Karen White out of contact with female prisoners. It would have also kept Isla Bryson out of a female prison - oh wait, it did.

No, it didn't. The court warrant sent Isla Bryson to Barlinnie. The prison service placed them in the women's jail because that is SPS policy. They would be there still if there hadn't been a public outcry.

No men should be in women's jails. Not one. Regardless of how they identify.

 

[monkers]

On the contrary, it's you that are claiming that transwomen are somehow different from other men. Statistically they have the same pattern of male offending. You are making the extraordinary claim that they are different from other men, and demand we give them privileges we don't give other men.

I haven't argued that transwomen should use disabled spaces. They shouldn't. Those are for disabled people. There could however
be a 3rd unisex space that anyone could use. This sensible solution isn't acceptable to transactivists though because it provides no validation.

If we're doing the association thing again, you should see some of the stuff 'your group' put out.

And keeping single sex spaces is all those things. It doesn't discriminate against trans people, because it is a proportionate discrimination against men. All men.

No, it doesn't. It says that in certain situations, and for good reasons, it's understandable to want to keep the sexes separate, even when it's harmless kids.

Keeping children apart in the sports changing rooms and showers isn't discriminatory, nor is it keeping them from being in contact with humanity. I know you find it impossible to be civil, but you could work on the hyperbole.


No, it didn't. The court warrant sent Isla Bryson to Barlinnie. The prison service placed them in the women's jail because that is SPS policy. They would be there still if there hadn't been a public outcry.

No men should be in women's jails. Not one. Regardless of how they identify.

It's all about your dogma, your demands for total exclusion isn't it.

We can have different opinions you know, but not if that means you having your own facts. Helpful hint; you can't.

Isla Bryson went to a female prison, remained in total isolation while a risk assessment was carried out. The GC brigade went hysterical before the outcome of the risk assessment was known. Bryson was moved out after the risk assessment having never been in contact with other prisoners. But according to you, this should never have happened. Pure prejudice.

You Aurora are an absolutist. It's too bad that people can't get all their own way all the time.

While sexual assault and rape is extraordinary levels, it isn't due to trans women prisoners being in the female prison estate.

You and others are making a great deal of fuss and noise, none of which is helping to reduce the level of sexual offences in the UK, or to increase the number of successful prosecutions. I'd rather spend my time advocating for that rather than wasting time on a non-issue.

 

[AuroraSaab]

It's all about your dogma, your demands for total exclusion isn't it.

It's not total exclusion. Just men are excluded.

We can have different opinions you know, but not if that means you having your own facts. Helpful hint; you can't.

Lol. I find your endless arrogance and patronising quite funny.

Isla Bryson went to a female prison, remained in total isolation while a risk assessment was carried out. The GC brigade went hysterical before the outcome of the risk assessment was known. Bryson was moved out after the risk assessment having never been in contact with other prisoners. But according to you, this should never have happened. Pure prejudice.

No it shouldn't. All men should be in men's prisons. Your argument is an argument for putting any man in a women's prison who wants to be there. They could all be risked assessed and found safe to place there.

You Aurora are an absolutist. It's too bad that people can't get all their own way all the time.

It's you who wants your own way - you demand that we believe transwomen are magically different from other men and that we treat them differently from other men. That's an extraordinary claim and you have provided no evidence for it.

You and others are making a great deal of fuss and noise, none of which is helping to reduce the level of sexual offences in the UK, or to increase the number of successful prosecutions. I'd rather spend my time advocating for that rather than wasting time on a non-issue.

It's not a non issue to many of us. And of course it's not just about prisons it's about all single sex spaces, and sports too, that transwomen are demading access to. You know this.

 

[classic33]

It's not total exclusion. Just men are excluded.

Lol. I find your endless arrogance and patronising quite funny.

No it shouldn't. All men should be in men's prisons. Your argument is an argument for putting any man in a women's prison who wants to be there. They could all be risked assessed and found safe to place there.

It's you who wants your own way - you demand that we believe transwomen are magically different from other men and that we treat them differently from other men. That's an extraordinary claim and you have provided no evidence for it.


It's not a non issue to many of us. And of course it's not just about prisons it's about all single sex spaces, and sports too, that transwomen are demading access to. You know this.

Where should trans men use/be placed then?

In your book they are women, and women should be placed/allowed in women only places

 

[AuroraSaab]

In women's jails. Funnily enough they don't seem to object to being be placed in women's jails. They don't ask to be placed with men. Wonder why that is.

 

[classic33]

In women's jails. Funnily enough they don't seem to object to being be placed in women's jails. They don't ask to be placed with men. Wonder why that is.

You can back those claims up I presume?

After all, if they've followed the system through they're legally men. One trans man I do know would disagree with you. He's also better qualified than either of us on the legal aspects of it.

 

[AuroraSaab]

They're only legally men if they have a GRC and the exemptions of the Equality Act still apply.

So out of 62 transmen prisoners, only 19 chose to be in the male estate (30%).

In Scotland 75% of transmen imprisoned choose to be in the female estate. Whereas 45% of transwomen are held in the female estate.

Would your transman friend choose to be placed in a male prison if convicted? Showering with the males? Bearing in mind that whilst women's prisons aren't particularly pleasant most women are there for non violent offences, whereas many more males are there for violent and sexual crimes.

Would you be happy for your friend to be in a male prison?

 

[classic33]

They're only legally men if they have a GRC and the exemptions of the Equality Act still apply.

View attachment 3156
So out of 62 transmen prisoners, only 19 chose to be in the male estate (30%).

View attachment 3157

In Scotland 75% of transmen imprisoned choose to be in the female estate. Whereas 45% of transwomen are held in the female estate.

Would your transman friend choose to be placed in a male prison if convicted? Showering with the males? Bearing in mind that whilst women's prisons aren't particularly pleasant most women are there for non violent offences, whereas many more males are there for violent and sexual crimes.

Would you be happy for your friend to be in a male prison?

As I said
"After all, if they've followed the system through they're legally men."
And I never limited the areas to just prisons.
I did ask on the prison side, given your response, but you've not proved that they were placed there after risk assessments were carried out or whether the choice was theirs alone.
"Funnily enough they don't seem to object to being be placed in women's jails. They don't ask to be placed with men."
Now answer the question asked. You make assumptions that back your viewpoint, and yours alone.

 

[AuroraSaab]

As I said "After all, if they've followed the system through they're legally men."
And I never limited the areas to just prisons.

They aren't legally men unless they have a GRC and even so could still be exempted from male single sex spaces under the Equality Act.

I did ask on the prison side, given your response, but you've not proved that they were placed there after risk assessments were carried out or whether the choice was theirs alone.

What risk would a transman be to male prisoners? I think we can assume they'd pass a risk assessment. And if they failed it, it would be because they wouldn't be safe in the male estate. Why would that be, do you think? Related to male bodied people being a risk to female bodied people perhaps.

In Scotland the prison service place you in the prison according to your chosen gender so I would think a transman could insist on going into the male estate if they wish. But 75% of them don't.

"Funnily enough they don't seem to object to being be placed in women's jails. They don't ask to be placed with men."
Now answer the question asked. You make assumptions that back your viewpoint, and yours alone.

You know why transmen mostly choose to be in female prisons just as well as I do. Would you prefer that they were placed in men's prisons whether they liked it or not?

In terms of transmen, it's up to you blokes whether you are ok with having them in your changing rooms, male rape support groups etc. Perhaps you yourself are happy to share services and spaces, but other men may not be happy discussing their sexual assault with say a transman counsellor for example. Should they have to?

Just because you personally consent to having transmen in your single sex spaces or services it doesn't mean you can consent on behalf of other men, and certainly not on behalf of women re transwomen.

 

[classic33]

They aren't legally men unless they have a GRC and even so could still be exempted from male single sex spaces under the Equality Act.

What risk would a transman be to male prisoners? I think we can assume they'd pass a risk assessment. And if they failed it, it would be because they wouldn't be safe in the male estate. Why would that be, do you think? Related to male bodied people being a risk to female bodied people perhaps.

In Scotland the prison service place you in the prison according to your chosen gender so I would think a transman could insist on going into the male estate if they wish. But 75% of them don't.

You know why transmen mostly choose to be in female prisons just as well as I do. Would you prefer that they were placed in men's prisons whether they liked it or not?

In terms of transmen, it's up to you blokes whether you are ok with having them in your changing rooms, male rape support groups etc. Perhaps you yourself are happy to share services and spaces, but other men may not be happy discussing their sexual assault with say a transman counsellor for example. Should they have to?

Just because you personally consent to having transmen in your single sex spaces or services it doesn't mean you can consent on behalf of other men, and certainly not on behalf of women re transwomen.

I'll pick up your last part first, and that is it's the role you've taken on, not me. You are the only one correct, with everyone else not allowed to correct you. You, like me, speak for yourself no-one else. Nor can you speak on behalf of anyone else, based purely on your opinion.

You still refuse to answer the question asked though. Only now you're fixated on prisons, not toilets. Still awaiting the proof from yourself that you know they've chosen to be housed in a women's prison, and that the risk assessment placed them at risk. You do after all acknowledge that without the gender reassignment certificate they'd not legally be classed as a man. Maybe that might explain where they get to serve their sentence.

I'll repeat what was said earlier, that being "if they have followed the system through", they're legally a man.

I go to the hospital, chances are all treatment will be given by women. I might be able to get males only treating me but that would slow things down, possibly even cancel any treatment being given. Even when it's a male only issue, there is still female involvement in the treatment.

You know what, I've never bothered about who was giving the treatment, or advice, just glad that they were there to do so. Nor have I ever felt inclined to ask them if were a women from birth or later in life. And under the Equality Act 2010 I have no legal right to ask them to prove either. Just the same as yourself.

 

[Unkraut]

... the woman in the conversation refuses to acknowledge that there needs to be any discussion about whether or not they are a woman ...

My comment was somewhat tongue in cheek in saying the conversation was ideologically between two biological males.

Biological sex is assigned at conception, seen on ultrasound if not too grainy, and observed at birth. It is scientific fact, not ideology.

The notion of gender is ideology, you can hardly invoke science to describe a barely definable social construct.

In short I take precisely the opposite view to the bod being interviewed.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You still refuse to answer the question asked though.

As is so often the case, I don't know what you are asking that I haven't already answered.

Still awaiting the proof from yourself that you know they've chosen to be housed in a women's prison, and that the risk assessment placed them at risk.

I'm not privy to each individual's prison records so I don't know for certain but it's not an unreasonable assumption seeing as they could likely go to the male estate if they chose. They definitely could in Scotland.

You do after all acknowledge that without the gender reassignment certificate they'd not legally be classed as a man. Maybe that might explain where they get to serve their sentence.

Being legally a man or woman doesn't come in to it. In England and Wales, until last month, you didn't need a GRC to be sent to the prison of your chosen gender. Though transwomen would initially be sent to male prisons, even without a GRC they could request a transfer.

In Scotland since 2014 you can go to the prison of the gender you are living in. You don't need a GRC.

I'll repeat what was said earlier, that being "if they have followed the system through", they're legally a man.

I go to the hospital, chances are all treatment will be given by women. I might be able to get males only treating me but that would slow things down, possibly even cancel any treatment being given. Even when it's a male only issue, there is still female involvement in the treatment.

That's historically the nature of the nursing profession. You should be able to have same sex care if you want it though, surely.

You know what, I've never bothered about who was giving the treatment, or advice, just glad that they were there to do so. Nor have I ever felt inclined to ask them if were a women from birth or later in life. And under the Equality Act 2010 I have no legal right to ask them to prove either. Just the same as yourself.

That fine. Other people don't feel the same and would prefer same sex care for things like intimate washing or intimate procedures. Would you deny them that choice?

 

[multitool]

Biological sex is assigned at conception, seen on ultrasound if not too grainy, and observed at birth. It is scientific fact, not ideology. The notion of gender is ideology, you can hardly invoke science to describe a barely definable social construct.

In short I take precisely the opposite view to the bod being interviewed.

You believe in eternal souls

 

[multitool]

...and Space Ghosts

 

[classic33]

As is so often the case, I don't know what you are asking that I haven't already answered.(1)

I'm not privy to each individual's prison records so I don't know for certain but it's not an unreasonable assumption seeing as they could likely go to the male estate if they chose.(2) They definitely could in Scotland.


Being legally a man or woman doesn't come in to it. In England and Wales, until last month, you didn't need a GRC to be sent to the prison of your chosen gender. Though transwomen would initially be sent to male prisons, even without a GRC they could request a transfer.

In Scotland since 2014 you can go to the prison of the gender you are living in. You don't need a GRC.

That's historically the nature of the nursing profession. You should be able to have same sex care if you want it though, surely.(3)

That fine. Other people don't feel the same and would prefer same sex care for things like intimate washing or intimate procedures. Would you deny them that choice?

1) That you can provide the proof that the decision to be housed in a women's prison was their choice, not the system deciding it for them.

2) Does this make the first point a personal opinion, on your part, not fact.
Bear in mind you weren't "priviy to each individual's prison records" for trans women either, but bold assumptions were made by yourself on this.

In Ireland, from 2016, you went where the court decided you should serve your sentence.

3)Within the limits already given. You can even have treatment declined for insisting on same sex treatment.
You state its the nature of the nursing profession, is it the same for doctors, which I did include, "all medical treatment", but you overlooked.

How do you ascertain whether a person is/should be allowed into certain areas. If you're actually asking for proof you are exceeding your authority. Do you apply the "Mick Dundee Test", or do you demand to see their paperwork?

Can we move away from being fixated on prisons, it's as bad as being fixated on toilets.