Gender again. Sorry!

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multitool

Guest
This is an interesting listen. Simon Evans interviewing Jane Faye, a trans woman (from 17mins 15 secs for Simon's preamble, 19mins 30 secs for the interview).

What did you find interesting? For me it was a waste of 5 minutes. Evans wasn't interested in Faye's answers at all, he didn't even engage with them. All he wanted to do was hijack the guest with the bullsh1t about calling babies fascists and try and make Faye responsible for something that is nothing to do with her. I suppose I shouldn't have expected anything else from Simon Evans, who himself writes for Spectator and the appalling Unheard bunch.

A good illustration of the impossibility of discussing issues affecting women with trans women.

Only if you have an agenda driven interviewer like Evans who didn't even try. No attempt to engage whatsoever.
 
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winjim

Welcome yourself into the new modern crisis
It was very obviously going to be a bad faith interview from the start. I've never listened to that programme before but it seems to exist purely as an attempt to be 'provocative' and 'edgy'. I expect they use the W word quite a lot in their production meetings. Did they do The One Joke by any chance?

That said, funnily enough I was watching clips of Jeff Innocent last night so that's a bit of a coincidence and I might give the rest of the programme a fair listen.
 
There are actually quite a few transwomen on platforms like Twitter, who very much don't subscribe to the kind of aggressive transactivism that makes the news. The ones who do get coverage in the media tend to be people like India Willoughby, Veronica Ivy, Beth Douglas, or Sarah Jane Barker, who don't do much for their own cause.
 

winjim

Welcome yourself into the new modern crisis
It was very obviously going to be a bad faith interview from the start. I've never listened to that programme before but it seems to exist purely as an attempt to be 'provocative' and 'edgy'. I expect they use the W word quite a lot in their production meetings. Did they do The One Joke by any chance?

That said, funnily enough I was watching clips of Jeff Innocent last night so that's a bit of a coincidence and I might give the rest of the programme a fair listen.

OK I listened to the first six and a half minutes and it's the most sterile, boring, safe comedy you could imagine. All the things 'you can't say these days' which I keep seeing and hearing all over the bloody place.

I stopped at the Jeff Innocent bit because it's the same sketch that's in all his clips that he's been doing for years. I think it must be the only material he's got. What a load of tedious bumgravy.
 

multitool

Guest
The issue I have with right-wing comedy is that invariably you can see the jokes coming a mile off. They don't seem to have evolved much further than Jim Davidson. Lee Hurst anyone?
 
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Could be, I suppose. Though I wouldn't equate the struggle of half the population to be given the same rights as the other half with the demand of men to be allowed into the women's sports category for example.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
The kindness you demand requires prioritising men's feelings over women's material reality. So unsurprisingly that's going to be a big 'No thanks' from me on that one.

It's men that are the issue. Not all men but enough of them for it to be a problem. What you want is for transwomen to be privileged over other men and for them to not be subject to the same exclusions that other men are. Exclusions which are there for sound material reasons.

Requiring people to use the grammar/spelling you demand is not asking for courtesy, it's trying to compel people's language.



It was post number 1000. It went on for ages.

"So let's put this out there straight out, a trans woman on hormones loses the capacity to be a rapist, though technically they could fit under the definition if they were to force another person to take the flacid little chappy into their mouth".

I've never known a woman write about rape using a phrase like 'force....the flaccid little chappy into their mouth' in a serious discussion.

You've proved that you have nothing but disdain for any boundaries that women have so I honestly don't give a toss what you think.

I can mostly respect the position of folk like Winjim, Ian, or Classic, on this issue because even if I think they are wrong I think they are trying to grapple with the issues. But you are an utterly bad faith actor, Monica, and I'm not going to be a prop in your endless quest for validation.

So I didn't write the phrase 'floppy penises' then.

To give better context to what I did write (post 1000), I wrote a serious piece about the effects of female hormones on the genitals of trans women.

I went on to ridicule the idea (and your ongoing statements) that trans women who have spent time on a hormone regime remain potential rapists.

This is the basis of the alarm that you attempt to whip up that has no validation in biological science - the lack of functioning equipment and the lack of libido render the idea ridiculous.

There is a piece in the Irish Times reporting Damian Hinds statement that there are just six trans women in the female prison estate in England and Wales. He has also reported that there have been no incidents of assault or sexual assault made by trans women while in prison in the last few years. Although the dates he is referencing in the piece are somewhat vague, I guess he is saying since the system failure that put Karen White in with others without risk assessment having taken place.


If one remembers the levels of reported violence between women in women's prisons, we can see that women pose a much greater threat to other prisoners than trans women currently in women's prisons in England & Wales.
 
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winjim

Welcome yourself into the new modern crisis
The issue I have with right-wing comedy is that invariably you can see the jokes coming a mile off. They don't seem to have evolved much further than Jim Davidson. Lee Hurst anyone?

I'm on my way to get a broken filling fixed so I'll listen to the rest of it on the walk there and back. To be honest I think the dentistry might be the more pleasurable experience.

TBF Jeff Innocent has now moved on from his black wife to his gay son which is a bit I hadn't heard before.

Edit: OK I'm out of the dentist's and still within the edit window so...

I've now listened to the whole show, including the interview again and... I don't get it. The comedy was dull and predictable, I didn't hear anything particularly provocative or challenging. Nothing that 'you can't say any more' because obviously, it's on Radio flippin' 4 so of course you can say it.

As for the interview, it was really strange. It didn't sit right in the format of the show, it felt horribly scripted at times, although I'm not sure whether it was actually scripted or not. Much like this thread, it sort of rehashed a bunch of stale old talking points, shifted about between issues and didn't leave me feeling that either participant actually had anything interesting to say.
 
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icowden

Legendary Member
From an ideological point of view this was two biological males talking about issues affecting women.

A fair point although the woman in the conversation refuses to acknowledge that there needs to be any discussion about whether or not they are a woman and whether other women who were not born men should be concerned, and spent most of the conversation shutting down the interviewer.
 
So I didn't write the phrase 'floppy penises' then.

Do you think 'flacid little chappy' is better? You belittled sexual assault when you said you supposed it would technically be rape if you ''force another person to take the flacid little chappy into their mouth" as though such an assault wouldn't be traumatic for anybody, male or female.


To give better context to what I did write (post 1000), I wrote a serious piece about the effects of female hormones on the genitals of trans women.

I went on to ridicule the idea (and your ongoing statements) that trans women who have spent time on a hormone regime remain potential rapists.

You don't have to be on cross sex hormones to be considered a transwoman. It's enough just to say you are a transwoman remember, because 'people are who they say they are'. Also there are plenty of males who pose a risk to women and girls (and boys) who do not have the capacity to have penetrative sex. But again, as far as you're concerned we have to set the threshold at 'raped with a penis' before it becomes something women should be concerning themselves with. The concepts of dignity and privacy don't seem to concern you. Nobody thinks 10 year old boys are rapists but we separate school kids in changing rooms and showers because we know both sexes are entitled to privacy and dignity.

This is the basis of the alarm that you attempt to whip up that has no validation in biological science - the lack of functioning equipment and the lack of libido render the idea ridiculous.
And it's ridiculous that you imagine being impotent somehow eradicates all risk, or all discomfort, that women and girls have with having male bodies in single sex spaces. If that's the criteria we should admit any man with prostate trouble, any elderly man, or any man who has lost erectile function through accident or disease.

'Do you mind if I use the women's showers? It's fine because I have erectile dysfunction'.


There is a piece in the Irish Times reporting Damian Hinds statement that there are just six trans women in the female prison estate in England and Wales. He has also reported that there have been no incidents of assault or sexual assault made by trans women while in prison in the last few years. Although the dates he is referencing in the piece are somewhat vague, I guess he is saying since the system failure that put Karen White in with others without risk assessment having taken place.

If one remembers the levels of reported violence between women in women's prisons, we can see that women pose a much greater threat to other prisoners than trans women currently in women's prisons in England & Wales.

Again, setting the bar at sexual or physical assault shows a blatant disregard for what you think women should have to tolerate in order to validate the feelings of men.
'Women sometimes assault other women' is not an argument for introducing men to the mix.
 
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