Gender again. Sorry!

[winjim]

I don't know who you have referred to as Nazis but I am sure you believe they deserve it.

The National Socialist Network.

It's not about whether I believe they deserve it, it's more about respecting how they themselves choose to identify.

They're Nazis.

 

[AuroraSaab]

We have female teachers, who in most cases can wander into boys changing areas, no questions asked as to why. It's just to be accepted, but why. Why is the "case" being made from one side only. Safe single sexed spaces at schools apply to one side only it would seem.

That's simply not true. Female teachers don't wander around boys changing rooms in schools as they wish. Boys and men deserve the same privacy and dignity as girls and women. I've said this to you several times.

Men and boys who need intimate care should have the right to a same sex carer just as women and girls should have.

In terms of sports, surely you can see that a transman wouldn't have an unfair physical advantage in male sports but a transwoman in female sports would.

 

[Rusty Nails]

The National Socialist Network.

It's not about whether I believe they deserve it, it's more about respecting how they themselves choose to identify.

They're Nazis.

That's reasonable, unlike most other comparisons to Nazis that are bandied around on internet forums.

 

[winjim]

That's reasonable, unlike most other comparisons to Nazis that are bandied around on internet forums.

I agree, and I think it's an injustice to the victims of such regimes to throw terms like that around lightly*. That's why I sought to clarify by saying they were Nazi wannabes.


*I may have done similar myself in less temperate moments, no need to remind me, I don't claim to be consistent.

 

[classic33]

That's simply not true. Female teachers don't wander around boys changing rooms in schools as they wish. Boys and men deserve the same privacy and dignity as girls and women. I've said this to you several times.

Men and boys who need intimate care should have the right to a same sex carer just as women and girls should have.

In terms of sports, surely you can see that a transman wouldn't have an unfair physical advantage in male sports but a transwoman in female sports would.

I never said "as they wish", it was no questions asked. Get a male teacher walking into the girls changing area and questions will be asked. Possibly even complaints made, but not the other way round. And you have said that it's something we should learn to put up with. Female teachers can't be a possible threat to young boys. Even you've said that before today.

As for same sex carer, for intimate care, your response was its the nature of the health system. Taken as meaning take it or leave it, if you're male.

Why should there be a third class of athlete, just to suit you? You have said that trans men should compete against men as they knew what they were doing from the word go. Just accept it in other words. Yet you still maintain only one side should be considered "third class". Because it didn't suit you.

From toilets, through prisons, sports and now the right to vote, you've been one sided all along. There's something that frightens you, but you're going to have to sort that out with yourself first.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I never said "as they wish", it was no questions asked. Get a male teacher walking into the girls changing area and questions will be asked. Possibly even complaints made, but not the other way round. And you have said that it's something we should learn to put up with. Female teachers can't be a possible threat to young boys. Even you've said that before today.

I've said none of those things, Classic. Statistically females are less likely to commit violent or sexual offences though. It doesn't mean they don't, but they are statistically less likely to and by quite a large margin.

As for same sex carer, for intimate care, your response was its the nature of the health system. Taken as meaning take it or leave it, if you're male.

Nope. I've said several times that you should be able to have a same sex carer, nurse or doctor if you ask for one. Yes, it's the nature of social care that many carers are women. There are various reasons for that.

Why should there be a third class of athlete, just to suit you? You have said that trans men should compete against men as they knew what they were doing from the word go. Just accept it in other words. Yet you still maintain only one side should be considered "third class". Because it didn't suit you.

From toilets, through prisons, sports and now the right to vote, you've been one sided all along. There's something that frightens you, but you're going to have to sort that out with yourself first.

It's not just to suit me, Classic. Lots of female athletes object to transwomen competing in the women's category. We all know they have an unfair advantage in most physical sports.
I could as easily ask why should males be allowed into the female category just to suit you?

I (and sports scientists) have suggested 2 categories - a protected female category for biological women and an Open category for biological males, transmen (if they wish) and exceptional females (if they wish). Preserves fairness, and not a 'third class'.

I think you need to ask yourself why you are so determined to go in to bat for stuff like men in women's jails and men in women's sports that most people on here, however sympathetic they are to the idea of being able to live as whatever you feel is your authentic self, haven't jumped in to defend.

If those are the misconceptions of my position that you've chosen to adopt, fair enough; I've clarified it and I'm not going over it again as we've covered it all in this thread several times already.

 

[multitool]

I think you need to ask yourself why you are so determined to go in to bat for stuff like men in women's jails and men in women's sports that most people on here, however sympathetic they are to the idea of being able to live as whatever you feel is your authentic self, haven't jumped in to defend.

Classic Aurora bullshït.

They haven't "jumped in" to defend your position either. Which means invoking the putative support on this forum on this point is disingenuous. How very you.

 

[mudsticks]

Indeed, why should decent non-violent men have to read post after post of men being aggressive bullies. We all know that some are, but we also know that the vast majority are not.

Most violence against women is DV. Whether violence against men or women is committed by men or women, inside or outside of the home, it is not within the purview of the GRA or EqA, so what does it have to do with trans rights? Why does it have to be repeated on pretty much every thread?

Pretty much every thread..??
Show me where..
Apart from this thread, its mainly discussed on the threads about The Met, and the one particularly about VAWAG.

Where they are the thread topic, it's a problem in the world that requires solutions, it's NACA.



Rather than 'weary' of 'having to read about it' decent men are weary about the fact that it's still going on

And want to reduce its incidence, not shy away as if it's utterly intractable unsolvable problem.

Decent men know it's 'not all men' and know that no one thinks it is.

Decent men are not that fragile, nor that stupid ime.

What does male on female violence, it's reality, and the fear of it, have to do with the maintenance of safe spaces for women??

Safe spaces that are (in some instances) being threatened ?


Umm let me have a think about that one..

Why is only one side of the trans gender 'argument" being portrayed here?

Trans men have made their choice, so they shouldn't have any worries about where they are sent, and men should just be ready to accept them. We can't have any objections under the same laws that protects women in women only areas.

This applies to trans men who compete in any sport. They knew what to expect from the minute they decided to become a man, now live with it. No inclusion in the "third class" of sports person for them.

Why should there even be a "third class"?

We have female teachers, who in most cases can wander into boys changing areas, no questions asked as to why. It's just to be accepted, but why. Why is the "case" being made from one side only. Safe single sexed spaces at schools apply to one side only it would seem.

But at the same time the possibility that women in men's spaces might make some feel uncomfortable should surely give you some inkling as to why some women feel uncomfortable with men in theirs.

The argument isn't constant, it changes at the whim of one person. Never staying the same, if they're not able to state their case it gets changed.

You're totally free to expand the discussion that way, and have done so in the past ..
Aiui women only spaces are particularly protected in law because the reality is that women are at far greater risk from men, than vice versa.
That's pretty indisputable.

No reason why transmen couldn't be included in that 'third class' or 'open' sport category if one was created, and if they wished to be in it,
Who said they couldn't be included in the open class?

Not sure that is the case that women teachers can wander unquestioned etc etc, , but if it were, then a risk assessment based on prevalence of gendered abuse, would indicate why.

The final part sounds a bit like a thread on a discussion forum, with different posters chipping in with their differing pov. The conversation moves in different directions, although it could of course be argued here that it just goes round and round 🤔

Apols for duff spacing in your quoted passage, the snipping into segments wouldn't work in the end.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

Not sure if this should go here or under the Starmer thread
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/18/labour-must-fix-trans-stance-win-next-election/

 

[multitool]

Not sure if this should go here or under the Starmer thread
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/18/labour-must-fix-trans-stance-win-next-election/

Can you not see that for what it is?

It's the Tories trying to draw Labour into the culture war, because its almost the only area they can split voters.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

It's the Tories trying to draw Labour into the culture war, because its almost the only area they can split voters.

The organisation, called Labour Together, aims to come up with a raft of policy recommendations that reposition the party as “socially to the Right and economically to the Left”.

I thought you'd be right behind that given your love of Starmer's 'vision'.
Anyhow this might be a discussion for the Starmer thread. I just thought it interesting given the spin that's emerging that the SNP chaos is a result of their gender stance

 

[winjim]

Anyone who thinks we need to come up with an answer to 'the trans question' hasn't understood the point of the Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy. I do find it quite ironic though that the 'trans debate' is often framed as a binary...

 

[multitool]

I thought you'd be right behind that given your love of Starmer's 'vision'.

Well, you'd be wrong given I have no 'love' for Starmer's vision.

 

[multitool]

Anyone who thinks we need to come up with an answer to 'the trans question' hasn't understood the point of the Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy. I do find it quite ironic though that the 'trans debate' is often framed as a binary...

For some it is binary. They do not want trans people to exist.

As many have said, there is not and will never be any useful, honest, conciliatory discussion around trans people whilst their lives are being used as fodder for a right-wing culture war.

 

[icowden]

Just so you know, and to save you some time, I never read your posts

Just so you know - if you don't read her posts, you don't need to tell us all.
If you don't want to read them, that's fine. You don't need to share.

Or are you one of those people that feels the compulsion to send tweets to female comedians telling them that they aren't funny?