Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

So let's put this out there straight out, a trans woman on hormones loses the capacity to be a rapist, though technically they could fit under the definition if they were to force another person to take the flacid little chappy into their mouth.

Seems a bit crass and dismissive of oral rape. Monkers has written the same lengthy description of transwomen's penises a few times now. Not sure why they think it's helpful but they seem to enjoy writing it.

 

[winjim]

Surely it's the same thing we are seeing though? I could see a shadow and know it's a shadow, someone else suffering from an illness could see a monster. The thing itself hasn't changed. 'Colour' ie a spectrum of light - exists whether humans exist to see it or name it or not.

(This is interestingly like Locke's primary and secondary qualities. A lemon could taste sour to one and sweet to another)

The spectrum exists as wavelengths of radiation but doesn't have a colour until we perceive and name it.

Again it's a sort of pedantry but if we're talking about the difference between sex and gender then the difference between wavelength and colour is interesting and appropriate I would say.

 

[AuroraSaab]

It's OK, she still doesn't know the difference between flacidity and atrophy, but give it time. Though a sense of humour may take a bit longer.

I'm sure you'll write it again soon so I can finally grasp why it could possibly be relevant.

 

[monkers]

I'm sure you'll write it again soon so I can finally grasp why it could possibly be relevant.

Nah. Now I've stopped taking you seriously, I'm quite content to just take the piss.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Oh man, are you still confused?

'Gender identity' is innate. The socially constructed part comes from gender roles, gender expression and what have you.

How can you know what your gender identity is without cultural stereotypes to tell you?

Why not list 5 things that tell you what your gender identity is? It might help those of us who don't have one. I remember you telling me I was non binary once lol.

 

[AuroraSaab]

The spectrum exists as wavelengths of radiation but doesn't have a colour until we perceive and name it.

Again it's a sort of pedantry but if we're talking about the difference between sex and gender then the difference between wavelength and colour is interesting and appropriate I would say.

Material things exist even if we don't perceive them though, surely. Tree falls in the woods etc. You can measure a spectrum of light in an objective way in a lab, and then call it colour or whatever you like. You're just naming a thing that exists external to human beings. Gender is just, and can only be, an idea in an individual's head so its perception can't be anything other than subjective. (Which is fine but some people want to base laws on it, which is a terrible idea obvs).

 

[winjim]

Material things exist even if we don't perceive them though, surely. Tree falls in the woods etc. You can measure a spectrum of light in an objective way in a lab, and then call it colour or whatever you like. You're just naming a thing that exists external to human beings. Gender is just, and can only be, an idea in an individual's head so its perception can't be anything other than subjective. (Which is fine but some people want to base laws on it, which is a terrible idea obvs).

I'm not calling a spectrum of light colour. I'm calling our perception of that spectrum of light colour. The colour doesn't exist outside of our perception of it.

 

[monkers]

Material things exist even if we don't perceive them though, surely. Tree falls in the woods etc. You can measure a spectrum of light in an objective way in a lab, and then call it colour or whatever you like. You're just naming a thing that exists external to human beings. Gender is just, and can only be, an idea in an individual's head so its perception can't be anything other than subjective. (Which is fine but some people want to base laws on it, which is a terrible idea obvs).

Colour perception is not external to human beings. You just get more and more desperate sounding trying to win the argument.

You don't have a perception of a gender identity - fine, I get that. Using your sexual identity, that's fine too.

Asserting that I and others can't have a gender identity on your say so because you don't understand it - not fine.

Go and live your life and let others do the same.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Go and live your life and let others do the same.

Happy to let anyone live how they want. Inevitably this can often lead to clashes in people's rights though, and those issues have to be discussed and negotiated. You personally can have whatever gender identity you like. Yet you insist on telling us it's innate and we all have one, and further you insist this nebulous concept should be given priority over the material reality of sex. That's the issue, regardless of how you wish to dress it up as an emotive question of people not being allowed to live their life.

Any takers on how you know what your gender identity is? Without reference to cultural stereotypes obviously.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I'm not calling a spectrum of light colour. I'm calling our perception of that spectrum of light colour. The colour doesn't exist outside of our perception of it.

I do get what you mean, even if I can't see the valid analogy. Seems a bad idea to use personal, subjective perception of stuff as a basis for anything important though, especially legislation.

 

[monkers]

I do get what you mean, even if I can't see the valid analogy. Seems a bad idea to use personal, subjective perception of stuff as a basis for anything important though, especially legislation.

Then you might need to read the legislation, both domestic and international since discrimination law is very much about how one person perceives another and denying service on that basis.

 

[monkers]

Happy to let anyone live how they want. Inevitably this can often lead to clashes in people's rights though, and those issues have to be discussed and negotiated. You personally can have whatever gender identity you like. Yet you insist on telling us it's innate and we all have one, and further you insist this nebulous concept should be given priority over the material reality of sex. That's the issue, regardless of how you wish to dress it up as an emotive question of people not being allowed to live their life.

Any takers on how you know what your gender identity is? Without reference to cultural stereotypes obviously.

Nope and nope again. More fiction.

 

[AuroraSaab]

And we're back to the Equality Act. We really have covered the same stuff a hundred times over. Thanks Winjim though, you had something new and interesting to add.

 

[monkers]

And we're back to the Equality Act. We really have covered the same stuff a hundred times over. Thanks Winjim though, you had something new and interesting to add.

Oh that one where you can't find a single mention of women's rights but insist they exist anyway? Actually I wasn't referring to the Equality Act per se. Since posting I realise that I'm thinking more about that which is within sentencing guidelines, where perceptions and presumptions about a victim's personal characteristics can lead to stiffer sentences.

 

[qigong chimp]

Were Dante writing today, I think we'd have had a tenth circle of hell.