Gender again. Sorry!

[icowden]

My views on the transgender issue are quite simple. I can understand the difference between one's sex and gender and perfectly well understand there are people whose gender does not match their birth sex and wish to transition. These people need to be able to lead the life they wish without criticism or abuse.

I'm not convinced of that bit. I think there are people who *think* that their gender does not match their birth sex. I think the scientific jury is still out on whether or not this is a psychological issue as opposed to biological - unless that person is DSD.

I can also understand the limited number of occasions such as some physical sports or use of traditionally single sex facilities such as toilets, where they are not allowed to have exactly the same access rights as their chosen gender...unless the vast majority of that gender have no issues and are prepared to accept them. There are limits to absolute freedom and rights within any society depending on the mores of that society. I do not consider it transphobic to have concerns about these issues.

Same.

I view the most extreme and abusive supporters of either side of the argument, in this country and the US, with equal distaste and do not believe the views of those extremes to be any reasonable guide to the views of most people on either side. I am not a great supporter of 'the right is on my side' or 'they started it' when it comes to verbal or physical abuse or threats, believing that they just deepen the polarisation. The tweet above about that woman protesting at the school's action over her child's transition actually proves nothing about the issues involved, nor makes any resolution easier, but is about apportioning blame and a further reflection of this polarisation.

This thread should be an opportunity for all issues to be discussed, as I believe was Claud's aim in starting it, but sadly it has turned toxic and is far too much about apportionment of blame.

<applause>

 

[multitool]

As the Cass report says, social transitioning is not a neutral act. It can concretise what is simply a passing phase for a child.

The Cass Report does not say that.

It says:

"Social transition – this may not
be thought of as an intervention or
treatment, because it is not something that happens within health services.
However, it is important to view it as an active intervention because it may have significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning. There are different views on the benefits versus the harms of early social transition."

So, unless I am mistaken you have inserted the bit about "concretising" yourself and are passing it off as Cass's words. Happy, to be corrected if you can find Cass saying that. I have parsed the report and cannot.

...and it does not contain anything at all about schools, other noting that opinions were heard during the course of the review.

One of the problems with the Cass Review is that an awful lot of people cite it without having read it. What they have read are other people's interpretations, particularly from pressure groups from both pro and anti sides of the spectrum, for example Mermaids and Sex Matters. The Internet is awash with these, and some of them contain wilful distortions which then get bandied around as fact.

Ditto 'department for education guidance for schools'. Try googling this and you'll get pages of pressure groups telling you what they thing the DfEs advice should be, but nothing from the DfE.

 

[multitool]

I'm not convinced of that bit. I think there are people who *think* that their gender does not match their birth sex. I think the scientific jury is still out on whether or not this is a psychological issue as opposed to biological - unless that person is DSD.

When is "thinking" not a psychological issue?

The jury is still out on pretty much everything concerning health issues that fall within the remit of psychiatry, isn't it? It strikes me as a profession verging on witch-doctory when compared with physical medicine. Even the most common illnesses such as depression are barely understood even from a functional level, let alone therapeutic.

Returning to the Cass report, it is often mis-cited as an excoriation of gender health services in the sense that they should be stopped when the opposite is true. Cass recommends the expansion of the service in order to generate the expertise requisite for effective treatment and sharing of knowledge.

 

[multitool]

My views on the transgender issue are quite simple.

LOL. No shît.

 

[newfhouse]

I'm not convinced of that bit. I think there are people who *think* that their gender does not match their birth sex. I think the scientific jury is still out on whether or not this is a psychological issue as opposed to biological - unless that person is DSD.

I’m sure I keep reading that gender doesn’t exist at all other than as a thought process that only some people have, and that if they do is it merely a consequence of social conditioning.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

I’m sure I keep reading that gender doesn’t exist at all

Of course it exists - and there's precisely 72 varieties of it. Or have I got that wrong?

 

[newfhouse]

Of course it exists - and there's precisely 72 varieties of it. Or have I got that wrong?

Complicated, innit?

 

[Deleted member 121]

Of course it exists - and there's precisely 72 varieties of it. Or have I got that wrong?

That's clearly wrong. Heinz have 57 varieties.

 

[AuroraSaab]

The Cass Report does not say that. It says:
"Social transition – it is important to view it as an active intervention because it may have significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning..."

- which is what I said. I never claimed to be quoting directly.

Returning to the Cass report, it is often mis-cited as an excoriation of gender health services in the sense that they should be stopped when the opposite is true. Cass recommends the expansion of the service in order to generate the expertise requisite for effective treatment and sharing of knowledge.

It recommends a 'fundamentally different' model for gender identity services that focuses on holistic treatment - ie addressing all the psychological issues children have, not just focusing on their body dysphoria like the affirmationmodrl does. It does not recommend expanding the service in its current form.

 

[multitool]

As the Cass report says, social transitioning is not a neutral act. It can concretise what is simply a passing phase for a child. In fact as

You are being dishonest again, Aurora.

You insert your own opinion next to a reference to the Cass report.

"It can concretise what is simply a passing phase for a child"... where did you get this bõllocks from? You've just completely made it up haven't you

 

[Julia9054]

If there are safeguarding concerns about physical safery, schools have a duty to inform the police and social services. They shouldn't be taking it upon themselves to manage that safeguarding concern by facilitating social transitioning.

I have so far resisted commenting on this thread but have to take issue here.
the “if” in this sentence is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. There is absolutely no evidence that there are concerns about physical safety in the case this refers to.

What if a school facilitates social transitioning, doesn't tell the parents, and the child later self harms or worse?

This does not happen.
The school are not taking it upon themselves to do anything. Schools do not facilitate social transitioning without involving parents/guardians and it is disingenuous for you to suggest that they do.
In the case referred to, the school have worked fully with the custodial parent (father).

 

[Bromptonaut]

I have so far resisted commenting on this thread but have to take issue here.
the “if” in this sentence is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. There is absolutely no evidence that there are concerns about physical safety in the case this refers to.

This does not happen.
The school are not taking it upon themselves to do anything. Schools do not facilitate social transitioning without involving parents/guardians and it is disingenuous for you to suggest that they do.
In the case referred to, the school have worked fully with the custodial parent (father).

Ahh, even more to it than the tweet suggested. As quoted up thread it's not linked, probably because either the author or the hashtag has restricted access to their feed.

So, as with so many of these things it's disingenuous bollox.

 

[multitool]

In the case referred to, the school have worked fully with the custodial parent (father).

Interesting.

A lot of the discourse around parents' rights when it comes to issues such as this project a somewhat romanticised and manicured view of the home. Most child abuse takes place in the home, and if memory serves, the person most likely to be the abuser is the mother.

 

[icowden]

Most child abuse takes place in the home, and if memory serves, the person most likely to be the abuser is the mother.

Whilst statistical studies suggest that, they don't tend to take into account that the mother is most often the primary care giver or the single parent.

 

[multitool]

Whilst statistical studies suggest that, they don't tend to take into account that the mother is most often the primary care giver or the single parent.

I think this is widely understood, icow.