Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

Yet here you are trying to maintain that this is the definition that counts. In law, it isn't.

BTW ... no one is two words, just like trans woman.

I'll go with what the 2 law professors say, thanks. I might use the more accurate term 'trans identifying male' if that helps though.

 

[monkers]

You keep telling us gender identity is innate. You keep telling us that people know who they are and we should believe them. By this logic, who are you to say that those who are part of the sissy porn community aren't transgender?

I have no problem whatsoever in recognising that there are people who have genuine body dysphoria and others who have a fetish for dressing as a stereotypical woman.

It's your unwillingness to acknowledge that there are bad faith actors who will claim to be transgender that is causing the problem.

Rated very feeble indeed.

'Sissy' is not a synonym for trans, but trying that usage intends something dark. I have some awareness of what the messages that the porn industry conveys, that women like it rough, enjoy being choked or having their hair pulled. It also uses terms like 'shemales' and 'chicks with dicks'. However you should know that these 'porn stars' are unlikely to be trans at all since their role in the industry requires them to have sexual function.

Trans people do not transition in order to work in the porn industry as 'sissies' or 'shemales'. That is not to say that trans people can never work in the sex industry at all; there can be no doubt that some do, just as cis people do.

 

[monkers]

I'll go with what the 2 law professors say, thanks. I might use the more accurate term 'trans identifying male' if that helps though.

Of course you will, and you'll refuse to open your mind to facts. I'm not surprised now that you have revealed that the evidence for your views is researched by googling 'sissy porn'.

A sad case of diminishing credibility.

 

[AuroraSaab]

LOL. Aurora's 'research'.
Googling kink porn.

So the ones who appear in the mainstream press must be genuine transgender people then. I don't think the transwomen sex offenders are personally, I think they are men with a fetish gaming the system, but if you are happy to claim them for the trans community I suppose we must believe they are who they say they are.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Rated very feeble indeed.

'Sissy' is not a synonym for trans, but trying that usage intends something dark. I have some awareness of what the messages that the porn industry conveys, that women like it rough, enjoy being choked or having their hair pulled. It also uses terms like 'shemales' and 'chicks with dicks'. However you should know that these 'porn stars' are unlikely to be trans at all since their role in the industry requires them to have sexual function.

Trans people do not transition in order to work in the porn industry as 'sissies' or 'shemales'. That is not to say that trans people can never work in the sex industry at all; there can be no doubt that some do, just as cis people do.

Are you saying that not everybody who says they are transgender has body dysphoria?

I am saying that it is patently obvious that there are men for whom dressing in stereotypical female attire and being in women's spaces is a sexual fetish. And that there is a distinction between these people and those for whom crushing body dysphoria is a real and serious mental health issue.

You have told us to believe people when they tell us who they are. Who are you to say that such people, whether porn stars or porn fans, aren't trans? You want self-ID. This is self-ID.

 

[monkers]

So the ones who appear in the mainstream press must be genuine transgender people then. I don't think the transwomen sex offenders are personally, I think they are men with a fetish gaming the system, but if you are happy to claim them for the trans community I suppose we must believe they are who they say they are.

The problem is that you don't know the majority of trans people going about their ordinary lives. On the other hand I know quite a number them. They are not flag wavers, not activists, not tomato juice throwers, they just do the same day-to-day stuff as the rest of us. They do not seek the limelight, or hide in shadows, they just carry on with their ordinary lives. Out in the real world, you probably don't notice them

You think you've found them when you access porn sites. This really is quite the revelation..

 

[multitool]

.

Are you saying that not everybody who says they are transgender has body dysphoria?

I am saying that it is patently obvious that there are men for whom dressing in stereotypical female attire and being in women's spaces is a sexual fetish. And that there is a distinction between these people and those for whom crushing body dysphoria is a real and serious mental health issue.

You have told us to believe people when they tell us who they are. Who are you to say that such people, whether porn stars or porn fans, aren't trans? You want self-ID. This is self-ID.

Yeah, I'm hearing from my female Irish friends that since self ID became law its impossible to go to the loo because there are such long queues of hairy-arsed bloke in dresses and lippy trying to get in too.

Same in all the 40 countries with Self ID apparently. The streets are full of women protesting about it.

It's a real problem.

 

[monkers]

Are you saying that not everybody who says they are transgender has body dysphoria?

I am saying that it is patently obvious that there are men for whom dressing in stereotypical female attire and being in women's spaces is a sexual fetish. And that there is a distinction between these people and those for whom crushing body dysphoria is a real and serious mental health issue.

You have told us to believe people when they tell us who they are. Who are you to say that such people, whether porn stars or porn fans, aren't trans? You want self-ID. This is self-ID.

No I'm not speaking for everyone, but if you think that a person who has large breast implants and face feminisation in order to work a specialist role in the porn industry for good money is a 'typical transsexual' then you are so very wide of the mark.

Dysphoria is experienced in the mind not the body.

There was a time when some trans people thought it was helpful to express how they felt by saying such things as 'born in the wrong body. These days you don't tend to hear that from trans people, but from people who don't experience it themselves but are familiar with the term and have absorbed it, even those who are trans supportive can still be heard saying this.

Quite clearly nobody is 'born in the wrong body'. There is no allocation system that is mismatching human brains with human bodies. I'm sure that over time there will be other paradigms, but at least for now most trans people seem content with the 'incongruence' paradigm.

The nature versus nurture debate is not helpful either. It really doesn't matter how a person becomes who they happen to be. That debate only has relevance to those with such ignorance as to believe that trans people are all 'broken' as Ormrod did. It makes the assumption that is necessary to know in order to 'fix them' with such tortures as electro-shock therapy. Ormrod believed that April Ashley was mentally ill. The WHO in the light of more modern medicine declared that trans people do not have a mental illness, and that therefore there can not be any means of diagnosis. All previous means of diagnosis were nothing more than recording the fact that trans people were repeatedly saying 'I'm trans'. There has never been value in this.

The mental health issues and anxieties currently experienced and expressed by trans people are that the current waves of hatred directed at them is causing them much distress.

There are cis men and cis women with kinks, some sexual fetishes and some not - I'm relying what others have told me as I'm somebody who just doesn't get BDSM - but my philosophy is live and let live. Likewise there are trans people with kinks. Why would we expect something different? Some trans people like kink, some don't.

There's something that I could have mentioned in this thread earlier, but in truth I didn't think to post it. Of the trans women transitioners that I do know and have known, I'd say that I've heard a majority say that they can't bear to have sexual contact involving their penis. They tend to shudder at the thought. This really is counter to any belief that these are people with kinks and fetishes, let alone potential rapists.

 

[AuroraSaab]

The problem is that you don't know the majority of trans people going about their ordinary lives. On the other hand I know quite a number them. They are not flag wavers, not activists, not tomato juice throwers, they just do the same day-to-day stuff as the rest of us. They do not seek the limelight, or hide in shadows, they just carry on with their ordinary lives. Out in the real world, you probably don't notice them

You think you've found them when you access porn sites. This really is quite the revelation..

You still can't bring yourself to acknowledge that there are people who would appropriate a trans identity for nefarious reasons. If you do the whole house of cards collapses because it undermines the 'they are who they say they are' mantra and makes a mockery of self-ID.

 

[monkers]

You still can't bring yourself to acknowledge that there are people who would appropriate a trans identity for nefarious reasons. If you do the whole house of cards collapses because it undermines the 'they are who they say they are' mantra and makes a mockery of self-ID.

That's nonsense. I've never suggested that there are none. Please do stop yourself from making stuff up.

It's all self-ID anyway.

As a woman I don't fear trans women in the spaces I use.

Here is my 'legitimate concern'. If spaces become segregated by biological sex, then those spaces will become vulnerable to men not even needing to try to look like women. Indeed they will need no disguise, no gender performance, they will simply need to say they are a trans man using the facility congruent with their biological sex as has become required. I'm predicting an increase in male predators in female spaces if/when segregation by biological sex happens.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Here is my 'legitimate concern'. If spaces become segregated by biological sex, then those spaces will become vulnerable to men not even needing to try to look like women. Indeed they will need no disguise, no gender performance, they will simply need to say they are a trans man using the facility congruent with their biological sex as has become required. I'm predicting an increase in male predators in female spaces if/when segregation by biological sex happens.

We currently have segregation by biological sex and men saying they are transmen doesn't seem to be a problem. The Equality Act and social mores seem to be sufficient in that they could be challenged and removed.

Conversely, under self ID any man could go into women's single sex spaces and say they are a woman, regardless of how they are dressed. There would be no recourse for women to ask for them to be removed.

 

[icowden]

Here is my 'legitimate concern'. If spaces become segregated by biological sex, then those spaces will become vulnerable to men not even needing to try to look like women. Indeed they will need no disguise, no gender performance, they will simply need to say they are a trans man using the facility congruent with their biological sex as has become required. I'm predicting an increase in male predators in female spaces if/when segregation by biological sex happens.

Somewhat baffled by this statement. Spaces are pretty much separated by biological sex at the moment. How is male predation in female spaces going to increase if males are not allowed in there?

 

[multitool]

Spaces are pretty much separated by biological sex at the moment.

No they aren't. Where do you think trans people currently go for a piss? And loads of women's shelters choose to permit trans women. Come on..we've done this so many times.

 

[monkers]

We currently have segregation by biological sex and men saying they are transmen doesn't seem to be a problem. The Equality Act and social mores seem to be sufficient in that they could be challenged and removed.

Conversely, under self ID any man could go into women's single sex spaces and say they are a woman, regardless of how they are dressed. There would be no recourse for women to ask for them to be removed.

We do have segregation by legal sex. You are campaigning for segregation by biological sex. Have you forgotten? Social mores? I thought gender identity was discredited by GC believers as 'nothing more than a social construct'? Are 'social mores' not a social construct that you are now giving credence to? So many contradictions.

If one changes one's gender identity, then one changes all records of identity. I don't think too many Bob the Builder types are going to change their formal identity to Jennifer in order to wash their hands in the basin next to mine in the loo.

 

[monkers]

Somewhat baffled by this statement. Spaces are pretty much separated by biological sex at the moment. How is male predation in female spaces going to increase if males are not allowed in there?

Nope. As the law stands, spaces are separated by legal sex. Gender critical people want this changed to biological sex, and this is what the government are now planning as a result of gender critical campaign groups.

I can't believe that AS and yourself are still this confused about this.

Do you really think that parliament would have created a law in 2004 (correction 2003) that said that trans women could marry men but not women, but then say that they must still pee in the gents?