Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

The point is are they safer on their own in the Gents or the Ladies, not whether they are safe when a parent is around, because obviously they are.

 

[winjim]

The point is are they safer on their own in the Gents or the Ladies, not whether they are safe when a parent is around, because obviously they are.

TBH I expect the perverts are more likely to be hiding in the ladies than going for a wee in the gents.

But it's a ridiculous hypothetical anyway. Do I send my son into the ladies on his own?

 

[winjim]

Bit of a tired old trope though isn't it? From transgender / women's rights to paedogeddon.

 

[AuroraSaab]

TBH I expect the perverts are more likely to be hiding in the ladies than going for a wee in the gents.

Yes they are. And that's why we exclude them from all women's single sex spaces. All of the men. However they identify, however they dress, however lovely they are .... we exclude them all. Because the problem is men. Not trans people because otherwise we'd exclude women who identify as men. The problem is men. Not all men, but enough of them for it to be a problem.

And you guys can do all the mental gymnastics you like, and pretend you don't apply greater safeguarding around men than you do around women, but at the end of the day you know it's men that are the problem. And as we can't tell the good guys from the bad guys we exclude them all.

 

[qigong chimp]

And as we can't tell the good guys from the bad guys we exclude them all.

There's something wrong with this, and not merely that having your genitals surgically removed suggests some real sincerity and earnestness in wanting to be... included.

Aligning with any societal gender norms is a trade off. The extravagantly pink tunic in my photo hasn't been out of the wardrobe since my student days.

 

[AuroraSaab]

The vast majority of men who identify as women do not have reassignment surgery. There's no evidence that men who identify as women have a reduced rate of offending, whether they have had surgery or not. That's why we exclude all men, including the ones who say they aren't.

It's not just about safety though, it's about privacy and dignity too. There's no special class of men that get a free pass just because they want to be included, however sincere they are.

 

[winjim]

The vast majority of men who identify as women do not have reassignment surgery. There's no evidence that men who identify as women have a reduced rate of offending, whether they have had surgery or not. That's why we exclude all men, including the ones who say they aren't.

It's not just about safety though, it's about privacy and dignity too. There's no special class of men that get a free pass just because they want to be included, however sincere they are.

There is a class of men which you suggest 'most women' are happy to have in the ladies toilet. I'm not saying it's because of a desire to be included and I think most men in that class would not in fact go in there, but you are accepting of them.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Would that be transmen, Winjim? Who are, and will always remain, female.

Why are most women accepting of transmen in female single sex spaces? Answer: Because they are women.

Perhaps you could spend your time trying to persuade your fellow men that their non conforming brethren should similarily be fully welcome in male spaces and sports, however they identify, rather than expecting women to accommodate them.

 

[winjim]

Would that be transmen, Winjim? Who are, and will always remain, female.

Why are most women accepting of transmen in female single sex spaces? Answer: Because they are women.

Perhaps you could spend your time trying to persuade your fellow men that their non conforming brethren should similarily be fully welcome in male spaces and sports, however they identify, rather than expecting women to accommodate them.

No. It was not trans men you mentioned earlier.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Apart from the fairly rare times a dad might take their daughter into the Ladies loos, I am still none the wiser who you mean. And a dad, who probably feels uncomfortable being there, using the facilities with his daughter as a one off, is very different from a man on his own who demands access all the time. Surely you can see the difference.

 

[winjim]

Apart from the fairly rare times a dad might take their daughter into the Ladies loos, I am still none the wiser who you mean. And a dad, who probably feels uncomfortable being there, using the facilities with his daughter as a one off, is very different from a man on his own who demands access all the time. Surely you can see the difference.

I can see that you haven't excluded all men. And is it that rare? If a father and a daughter are out for more than a couple of hours, chances are that one of them at least is going to need the loo.

It's rare because they usually use the gents.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I haven't seen it that often. But surely you can see the difference between occasional use of a public toilet out of necessity and giving any man carte blanche to be in any female single sex space. You might say 'I'm not asking for that', but surely if you think a man is 'woman' enough to be in female toilets and changing rooms, your logic should be he's 'woman' enough to be in women's prisons or domestic violence refuges. It's really not just about toilets.

 

[winjim]

All I'm saying is that contrary to your assertion, you do not wish to exclude all men from using the ladies toilet and you believe that most women feel the same way.

That's all I'm saying.

 

[theclaud]

The elephant in the room, to which I believe Jim is gesturing, is that public space could be arranged in such a way as to normalise men performing routine childcare and supervision, instead of implying that it's women's work. There's are several obvious feminist arguments for unisex public toilet facilities and changing rooms. I've made some of them before. There are arguments for segregation as well, but I'd gently suggest that Who Raises Children is a bigger feminist issue than The Trans Menace in the Toilets, which might just be looming a little larger in the public imagination than any rational assessment of the risk could warrant.

 

[AuroraSaab]

And feminists have been addressing both those issues for years. It's not either/or.

Perfectly possible to have Women's, Men's, and Unisex facilities. It's trans activists who reject the unisex option if it still leaves women with single sex spaces.

But once again you reduce it to toilets and trans, when it's about women's rights to female only provision in many areas and services.