Gender again. Sorry!
- Thread starter theclaud
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multitool
Pharaoh
Cool. Can you answer my question now?
AuroraSaab
Squire
1. So where do trans women go to the toilet now?
Some in the Men's, some in the Ladies. Legally they can be excluded from women's single sex spaces and services, same as other men are. The fact that some men choose to ignore this and cross women's boundaries doesn't mean these spaces and services aren't necessary.
2. Do they use the ladies, and if they do, is there anyone checking their genitals on the way in?
No. You don't need to. Most women would be scared of challenging a male in a women's changing room or toilet if they were on their own anyway. Why should they have to?
2. Why isn't the media full of stories about trans women sexually assaulting people in the toilets?
Does only sexual assault count? What about privacy and dignity? You are setting bar pretty high for what women and girls should have to tolerate before it becomes a problem for you.
Plenty of evidence of men abusing unisex facilities eg Primark unisex changing rooms. How many do you think we should allow? Do you have a figure in mind for the number of acceptable incidents? Transwomen have the same offending rates as other men. Saying the magic words 'I feel like a woman' shouldn't give anyone a free pass. If you open up women's single sex spaces to transwomen you are opening them to all men.
3. And if they are self-IDing now and have been for years and it hasn't been an issue then why will it suddenly become one if the only change is legal recognition?
There have been issues. Men's crime recorded as women's crimes, males in female prisons, women's services open to men, women having to share hospital wards with men. The fact that you personally aren't aware of any problems so therefore it doesn't matter speaks volumes really.
At the moment any man in a women's single sex space can be challenged. It will become more of an issue because it won't be possible to challenge any male, genuinely trans or any other bloke, if you can self ID at will.
OK, now do something other than toilets. Explain to me why a woman who has been raped shouldn't be able to insist on a group therapy course that consists of only women and girls as participants and counsellors, and which excludes men, including men who claim to be transwomen. Because if self-ID is law, she won't be able to. And it will never make the news because she will simply self-exclude.
Some in the Men's, some in the Ladies. Legally they can be excluded from women's single sex spaces and services, same as other men are. The fact that some men choose to ignore this and cross women's boundaries doesn't mean these spaces and services aren't necessary.
2. Do they use the ladies, and if they do, is there anyone checking their genitals on the way in?
No. You don't need to. Most women would be scared of challenging a male in a women's changing room or toilet if they were on their own anyway. Why should they have to?
2. Why isn't the media full of stories about trans women sexually assaulting people in the toilets?
Does only sexual assault count? What about privacy and dignity? You are setting bar pretty high for what women and girls should have to tolerate before it becomes a problem for you.
Plenty of evidence of men abusing unisex facilities eg Primark unisex changing rooms. How many do you think we should allow? Do you have a figure in mind for the number of acceptable incidents? Transwomen have the same offending rates as other men. Saying the magic words 'I feel like a woman' shouldn't give anyone a free pass. If you open up women's single sex spaces to transwomen you are opening them to all men.
3. And if they are self-IDing now and have been for years and it hasn't been an issue then why will it suddenly become one if the only change is legal recognition?
There have been issues. Men's crime recorded as women's crimes, males in female prisons, women's services open to men, women having to share hospital wards with men. The fact that you personally aren't aware of any problems so therefore it doesn't matter speaks volumes really.
At the moment any man in a women's single sex space can be challenged. It will become more of an issue because it won't be possible to challenge any male, genuinely trans or any other bloke, if you can self ID at will.
OK, now do something other than toilets. Explain to me why a woman who has been raped shouldn't be able to insist on a group therapy course that consists of only women and girls as participants and counsellors, and which excludes men, including men who claim to be transwomen. Because if self-ID is law, she won't be able to. And it will never make the news because she will simply self-exclude.
mudsticks
Squire
I don't agree with everything that AS says about the trans issue, I'm generally on the side of transpeople and their right to exist and identify as they want to - within limits where it doesn't impinge on the safety of womankind.
A safety that has been, and still is disregarded, and sidelined as an issue.
That safety, in situations where womankind is particularly vulnerable - to a lesser extent (perhaps) in toilets but certain to a greater extent in hospitals and prisons should be paramount.
I think that's what AS is trying to emphasise.
I don't know precisely how these conflicts of interest around transpeople get resolved in all these situations.
But I do want the rights and recognition of transpeople to be upheld, I know there are 'genuine' transpeople out here, they're not doing it to get attention, or to be able to 'get away' with bad behaviour.
.
I also see this issue being used as a divisionary tactic being used by right wing conservatives, stirring up some kind of anti progress - anti 'woke' anti trans, fabricated moral panic..
(That's not what I particularly see AS doing - for the avoidance of doubt)
Anyway, I don't have all the answers, nowadays I generally stay out of these discussions.
I just wish as much effort was put into tackling the root causes of the abusive behaviour that necessitates women having 'safe spaces'.in the first place.
Tackle that toxic masculinity, that entitlement, the misogyny, the swift recourse to violence, with anything as much vigour as people are employing here to (justly) stand up for trans rights, and we might get somewhere.
classic33
Me
Where do the men go when diagnosed with a "woman's problem"?
The system is set up to treat it only as a female issue. From being seen in outpatients to being in hospital for longer periods to allow more checks to be made in a shorter time and fewer visits.
It's a lousy feeling when you're told you shouldn't be there/have no right to be there in the outpatients. Plenty bring a male partner who don't seem to count as being somewhere they have no right to be. Some even demanding that their treatment be moved to a different time.
Being placed in a side ward, well out of sight of anyone, can be problematic. Tests done either in that side room, or after everyone else has had theirs done. Or when the side room was located.
A female nurse to accompany a male doctor to every patient. I can understand that, but it takes time that could be used for/on someone else. Staff numbers being limited, so time is at a premium.
My problem, breast cancer. There are no seperate facilities in place for any male who has to be tested/treated for it. And the attitudes of some of the women leaves a lot to be desired. It's not something that was faked, with the intention of getting into a female only area, General Outpatients is just that, general, dealing with many health issues as a section within the hospital.
AuroraSaab
Squire
I am sorry that you didn't receive the standard of care and treatment you deserve. It should be possible to compassionately accommodate men with a rare, usually only female, condition like male breast cancer (only 400 cases a year in the UK) within the system. I hope you also might understand why women who might have had a breast removed, or have a catheter, only feel comfortable in an area where they can be with other women. They might not feel able to talk freely about private matters with a male patient around. Same applies to having a female nurse if it's a male doctor. It might all feel like a personal slight but it honestly isn't.
Bromptonaut
Rohan Man
- Location
- Bugbrooke, Northants
Sally Anne Dixon transitioned in 2004 so has presumably been living as a woman for 18 years. The offences for which she was sentenced were committed long before she transitioned. Both the Sussex express and the Sun make quite clear that she's a transwoman.
I'll go with her being genuinely trans; maybe not the full shilling but definitely trans.
Her behaviour in prison is a prison discipline issue; how would it be different if Dixon had been born female and behaved the same way?
multitool
Pharaoh
How do you know this? Do you have data?
Well, unless you can provide some sort of cogent data that toilets are a scenario for sex offences by trans women, then I'm confused as to why it would be necessary anyway. Do you have data? Actual data, rather than links to tabloid hatesites that cite the same handful of examples
On your terms, yes, because you view TW as men. In what way are they not open to all men now? Nobody polices them, and all it would take is a shave, a wig, a dress and some lippy. If men can do this now, why aren't they? And how would Self-ID in law change this?
So make me aware then. Data please.
Sure, but you are predicting that this will cause problems for women. Its a hypothetical.
So what is the evidence that your fears have come to fruition in Iceland, Portugal, Malta, Norway, Denmark or Belgium or indeed the Republic of Ireland, where a Gender Recognition Act allowing self-declaration was passed five years ago. Data please.
One thing at a time. I don't feel that you have addressed my questions in an evidenced or expansive way.
As an aside, I would encourage you to read about women's refuges, and what they say about checking gender or sex as a condition of entry (TLCBA: many/most don't, because there are other more pressing factors)
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Bromptonaut
Rohan Man
- Location
- Bugbrooke, Northants
The current situation is de facto self ID.
Most trans people, in whichever direction their journey, don't go through the palaver of obtaining a Gender Recognition Certificate. If they do then the legislation requires that the applicant to show he/she has lived in the acquired gender throughout the period of two years ending with the date on which the application is made. So in effect, and I saw a colleague do this, somebody going male>female will go through steps to feminise their appearance (hormones, electrolysis, maybe learning mannerisms etc etc) and then dress, live and behave, including name and pronouns, in their acquired gender. They'd use the female toilets in exactly the same way as any other female; enter cubicle, sort out clothing, do business and reverse dressing process before emerging to wash their hands.
Before the Gender Recognition Act (something the UK had to enact following adverse findings in Strasbourg) people would, presumably, simply adopt their new gender in the same way. Those not wanting/needing a GRC follow the same route to this day. Unless there's a gatekeeper to have a look/see they use female facilities for the most part undetected.
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classic33
Me
I've nothing against how I was treated by the medical staff. Either in General Outpatients, or whilst in the hospital. It was the attitudes of some of the others there, for the same reasons as myself that stand out. Openly hostile towards staff because I was there as a patient. I could just have been waiting for someone being seen, up to the point of my name being called.
In what way do I differ, as a patient, to the male partners that were there with them and others? The most you're asked in a public area is to confirm name, appointment time and possibly your doctors surgery. Everything else is done behind closed doors, in consultation rooms. There is little said of a medical nature in the waiting area. Certainly non by medical staff to a patient. The female nurse with a male doctor I can understand, but I wasn't allowed to ask that she not be present and be seen by male only staff. Rules of the hospital and the trust. The same rules prevented me being seen only by male staff. If a female doctor, the rules were she was okay on her own. Again, no problems with that. I did ask the nurse. It's odd what small talk you make in such a situation.
Cancer doesn't car who it gets, or where. But, when you've been told you need checking out/over and then referred further, why should a male be made to feel that they have no right to treatment, purely because they are male. It's not by the medical staff, but others in the same situation. Some quite vocal with their opinions.
AuroraSaab
Squire
With self-ID there would be none of this though. Men who are not genuinely trans would be able to say they are and access any women's single sex spaces and services. Any of them. Do you honestly imagine there aren't men who get a thrill just from being in women's changing rooms? Blokes taking videos in women's changing rooms and toilets is a whole porn category in itself. They will do it anyway but why make it easier?
It might be de facto self ID into toilets but it mostly isn't into other services. The fact that we already have men willing to invade women's spaces doesn't mean we should make it easier.
Again, you are equating feminity with being a woman. Being a woman is not a costume. You can't put it on by shaving your legs and 'learning mannerisms' whatever the heck women's mannerisms might be.
Perhaps you could give me a list of women's mannerisms. I could check myself and make sure I am 'womaning' correctly.
multitool
Pharaoh
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AuroraSaab
Squire
What stops men using women's services now is the social contract and the knowledge that they are breaking the law. It's the same thing that stops most people from driving through red lights even on an empty road. Self ID does away with both these things.
AuroraSaab
Squire
It's men, mate, men. Regardless of how they identify. You are not seriously going to claim that toilets and communal changing rooms aren't a magnet for dodgy blokes in the way that womens loos are not? I can't even remember the last criminal incident I saw that involved a woman getting up to no good in women's toilets. Where are all the prosecutions of women for filming under cubicles in changing rooms?
Transwomen offend at the same rate as other men. It's you who needs to provide the evidence as to why they should get a free pass.
The figures in the 'tabloid hatesite' were provided by the Scottish prison service. Why do you find it so hard to believe that some men will lie - either to get access to women's spaces or a softer sentence?
They are men. They are no less men than any other men on the planet
There are no magic words or potions that can change your sex. And men do invade women's spaces now, but the social contract and EA legislation keeps men out of most single sex services adequately when applied correctly. Why make it easier to breach women's boundaries?
Again 'a wig, a dress, some lippy' is a costume. It does not make a woman a woman. It certainly does not make a man a woman.
Republic of Ireland? Where self ID was snuck in to law, without any discussion, attached to same sex marriage laws? Where men could legally be women 5 years before women could get an abortion? Well for a start the highest number of biological women held in jail for sexual offences was 3 up to 2017, according official stats.
Yet today there are 3 transwomen sex offenders in Limerick prison at the moment out of a total women's prison estate of 180. So pretty high offending rate for transwome considering there are far fewer of them than actual women. Here they are:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40234322.html
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...her-mother-found-guilty-in-limerick-1.4873477
https://m.sundayworld.com/crime/cou...-of-depraved-child-abuse-images/40240691.html
Here's a Twitter thread breaking down the general stats on transwomen and offending for those who think male patterns of offending magically change when you put a dress on.
View: https://twitter.com/mar2vickers/status/1611556615227858946
Some refuges don't exclude transwomen. So what? I'm not against transwomen having places in refuges. I am against there being no separate provision for women who want single sex services - which is the case in Edinburgh and Brighton at the very least. Women will just self-exclude from these services, it won't make the news.
Admitting transwomen to women's refuges doesn't always go well. Katie Dolatowski is a 6'5" child molester who was in a women's refuge:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...aff-71-day-stay-domestic-violence-refuge.html
'One thing at a time?' Lol. I'm not your butler, mate. Why don't you start providing some evidence on how you can miraculously change sex and why some men, trans or not, should be believed and others not.
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