Gender again. Sorry!

[winjim]

The elephant in the room, to which I believe Jim is gesturing, is that public space could be arranged in such a way as to normalise men performing routine childcare and supervision, instead of implying that it's women's work. There's are several obvious feminist arguments for unisex public toilet facilities and changing rooms. I've made some of them before. There are arguments for segregation as well, but I'd gently suggest that Who Raises Children is a bigger feminist issue than The Trans Menace in the Toilets, which might just be looming a little larger in the public imagination than any rational assessment of the risk could warrant.

That's kind of it. Maybe I wasn't thinking too much about actual arrangement of public spaces but that might be male privilege as when I've got the kids with me I will happily bulldoze my way into any space I need if it's for their wellbeing.

It was kind of a humorous aside and perhaps it was naive of me to think that the conversation would turn into what it has become. I wasn't really making a comment on toilet use by trans people. Again it was meant as a bit of a piss take because I don't think it's part of mainstream thinking but I wanted to illustrate the way that The Fear has so gripped some women that they seem willing to basically undo about a century of progressive thinking when it comes to childcare and gender roles. We've only just got to a position where we've got shared parental leave available and here are some mothers saying they wouldn't entrust the care of their children to their own fathers. It's utterly regressive and seems anti-feminist to me.

Quite apart from anything, motherhood is an absolutely frazzling experience, are we now saying that fathers can't take the kids and give their partners a tiny bit of a break? And the kids can't have that important bonding experience with their dads?

Maybe our public spaces could be arranged a bit better but in the meantime let's trust fathers to look after their kids, eh?


For the avoidance of doubt, in the particular tweet I'm thinking of, although there are others, this isn't an estranged partner or absent father, this is the husband of the woman in question.

 

[swansonj]

Hello @swansonj! Happy New Year.

Thank you

 

[AuroraSaab]

That's kind of it. Maybe I wasn't thinking too much about actual arrangement of public spaces but that might be male privilege as when I've got the kids with me I will happily bulldoze my way into any space I need if it's for their wellbeing.

Maybe our public spaces could be arranged a bit better but in the meantime let's trust fathers to look after their kids, eh?

It's not really about the toilets, is it .... though it's interesting that this seems to be the only women's single sex space that you can get your head around. Now do the ones you won't ever need access to .... women's prisons, women's rape counselling groups, women's intimate care....

 

[winjim]

It's not really about the toilets, is it .... though it's interesting that this seems to be the only women's single sex space that you can get your head around. Now do the ones you won't ever need access to .... women's prisons, women's rape counselling groups, women's intimate care....

Second paragraph was the main bit really.

 

[AuroraSaab]

So, huge discussion about women's rights and your main point is 'What about the dads though?'

 

[winjim]

Jesus Christ

 

[Ian H]

Jesus Christ

Was he a dad? I'm not an expert on the apocryphal gospels.

 

[multitool]

So where do trans women go to the toilet now? Only asking because I've never seen one in the gents. Do they use the ladies, and if they do, is there anyone checking their genitals on the way in? And if there isn't, and they are using the ladies now, then why isn't the media full of stories about trans women sexually assaulting people in the toilets? And if they are self-IDing now and have been for years and it hasn't been an issue then why will it suddenly become one if the only change is legal recognition?

 

[winjim]

Was he a dad? I'm not an expert on the apocryphal gospels.

He's his own father isn't he?

 

[multitool]

He's his own father isn't he?

Well that's just pushing this whole woke thing too far

 

[Ian H]

He's his own father isn't he?

In the absence of DNA evidence we can only speculate.

 

[winjim]

Well that's just pushing this whole woke thing too far

Wait til you find out what happens at Easter.

 

[newfhouse]

Wait til you find out what happens at Easter.

Even as a child the whole egg-laying rabbit thing bothered me.

 

[winjim]

Even as a child the whole egg-laying rabbit thing bothered me.

Well yes, it's the wrong type of gamete, no wonder it makes you feel uncomfortable.

 

[AuroraSaab]

So where do trans women go to the toilet now? Only asking because I've never seen one in the gents. Do they use the ladies, and if they do, is there anyone checking their genitals on the way in? And if there isn't, and they are using the ladies now, then why isn't the media full of stories about trans women sexually assaulting people in the toilets? And if they are self-IDing now and have been for years and it hasn't been an issue then why will it suddenly become one if the only change is legal recognition?

Currently they should legally use the Men's. Some will use the Ladies. You don't need to check their genitals. The exclusion is of men, not trans people, by the way.

I could give you a list of news stories of men's behaviour in women's facilities, assaults, filming women etc. and some of those men will claim to be trans. The point is we exclude them all, for good reason, because they are men. We don't give any man a free pass based on how he feels.

Do you honestly imagine there aren't men who will claim a trans identity in order to be in women's spaces, like softer prisons? Half the Scottish prisoners who claimed they were transwomen after conviction reverted to identifying as men on release.

Police forces are still mostly recording crimes by the offenders chosen gender not their biological sex, skewing the statistics.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.lbc.co.uk/news/british-transgender-accused-rapists-recorded-female/

And news outlets are recording their crimes as being done by women.

https://www.sussexexpress.co.uk/new...ainst-children-in-bexhill-and-crawley-3856772

That male sex offender is currently in a women's prison by the way.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...le-prison-relationship-vulnerable-female/amp/

Do you think Sally Anne Dixon is genuinely trans and should have access to women's spaces?

It will become more of an issue if self ID becomes law because currently any man in a women's single sex space can be challenged. If self ID is legal, he could not be.

Unisex spaces are bad for women, and allowing any men into them on demand makes them unisex.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html?amp

Court case last week of a man assaulting a woman in unisex toilets.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/man-pulled-woman-nightclub-toilet-25912782

It really is some magical thinking if you believe men won't use abuse self ID to enter women's spaces, whether it's changing rooms or prisons. We can't tell which man has had crushing body dysphoria from a young age and which one simply has a fetish for wearing women's clothes and being in their spaces. So we exclude them all.