Gender again. Sorry!

[multitool]

Wow attack on transgender people by not attacking any transgender people at all, or mentioning them. How does that work exactly?
Sounds very inefficient to me.

Do you think TP would stage these protests if they remained unreported?

No, me neither.

Let me give you an analogy. A few years back the target was Muslims. Do you think that had any effect on the Hindu or Sikh populations?

You seem to think that the kind of idiot who is influenced by these sorts of protests is discerning.

 

[icowden]

Let me give you an analogy. A few years back the target was Muslims. Do you think that had any effect on the Hindu or Sikh populations?

Probably, but if we had been discussing Hinduism and Sikism at the time, it still wouldn't have been relevant to the discussion.

You seem to think that the kind of idiot who is influenced by these sorts of protests is discerning.

No, I think that there are distinct groups of people in the middle of which is a small (if vicious and vacuous) overlap. The article was specifically about protests at Drag Queen story hour. It isn't really relevant to self-id, gender reassignment etc. It's a standard anti-gay protest. There is no grey area of legislation. Drag Queens are entitled to run story hours for kids. They are not forcing anyone to attend and they are bound by the same decency laws as apply to everyone else. They are not asking for changes in the law, extensions of rights. They are not shutting down conversation or denying free speech - the opposite in fact.

OK, Turning point may also have issues with Transmen and Transwomen and gender self-ID, but that was not what this protest was about.

 

[AndyRM]

They can if they wish. However being a transwoman is not being a Drag Queen.
I'm pretty sure that calling a transwoman a Drag Queen would count as denigration.

Well, no, it isn't. And yes, it would be.

Thanks for the 'splain though.

 

[icowden]

Well, no, it isn't. And yes, it would be.
Thanks for the 'splain though.

Well you did ask...

 

[multitool]

It's an anti-trans organisation chipping away at anything it thinks will gain traction, and if you can't recognise the tacit mental link between men presenting as women and trans women that says something about your powers of perception.

Still, at least you've stopped telling people to 'piss off' and calling them 'morons'.

 

[Unkraut]

recognise the tacit mental link between men presenting as women and trans women

You mean they are one and the same ...

 

[multitool]

You mean they are one and the same ...

I'm talking about other people's perceptions of TW and drag queens.

I mean, clearly, i***den is almost at the point of falling into the elephant trap he's set for himself. Let's see if he can work it out, now that I've alerted him to it

 

[icowden]

Still, at least you've stopped telling people to 'piss off' and calling them 'morons'.

I don't tell people to do that. Just you, when you are resorting to playground name calling to make yourself feel big.

 

[icowden]

I'm talking about other people's perceptions of TW and drag queens.

I hope you have some evidence to back up that other people think like you and not me. You have been very keen on that from other contributors. Some people can distinguish between a transwoman and a woman before surgery and hormones:-

It's harder to distinguish between post op:-

But I am pretty sure that anyone can distinguish between a woman and a drag queen.

 

[multitool]

I don't tell people to do that. Just you, when you are resorting to playground name calling to make yourself feel big.

In which case you do, then, don't you. Liar.

 

[multitool]

I hope you have some evidence to back up that other people think like you and not me. You have been very keen on that from other contributors.

Let me spell it out for you, seeing as how you aren't capable of complex thought, nuance or indeed anything much at all.

If TW are materially or psychologically no different to any other man (as per the view of anybody who thinks transgender is an 'ideology' rather than a reality) then there is no difference between a trans woman and a drag queen.

Do you think adherents of Turning Point think TW are men or women?

Want a hand out of the huge trap you set yourself then fell in?

 

[Bromptonaut]

A drag queen is, at least in my mind, a man doing exaggerated impersonation of characteristics supposedly associated with being female including their modes of dress. Ru Paul would be a US example. Our own Paul O'Grady's Lily Savage persona would be another.

It's widely thought of as being a gay 'thing' though not exclusively so.

I don't follow @icowden's assertion that it and trans are so separate as to be binary. There's a whole set of different forms of, for want of a better phrase, cross dressing which seem to me to be something like a continuum. Eddie Izzard seems to have gone from cross dressing comic, drag if not the full queen thing, to identifying as a woman.

Grayson Perry anyone?

Used to be a bloke at work who was called for many years (I think) Stuart. Over time he grew hair and nails and began to dress androgynously, eventually changing to the name Louise. No hormones, no surgery. Were they trans? I cannot remember whether the term was even widely used then - closing months of C20 when we were on a course together.

 

[icowden]

There's a whole set of different forms of, for want of a better phrase, cross dressing which seem to me to be something like a continuum. Eddie Izzard seems to have gone from cross dressing comic, drag if not the full queen thing, to identifying as a woman.

He now says he is trans.

Grayson Perry anyone?

He is straight, has a wife and kids but likes to cross dress. He has a name for his alter ego "Claire". "Claire" is more akin to Drag than any desire to be a woman.

Used to be a bloke at work who was called for many years (I think) Stuart. Over time he grew hair and nails and began to dress androgynously, eventually changing to the name Louise. No hormones, no surgery. Were they trans?

Did they create an alter ego and start lipsynching whilst wearing 6 inch heels, sequins and fabulous makeup? If not, then probably Trans.
The concept of trans doesn't required surgery or hormones. This is one of the concerns that some lesbian groups have with the whole Transwomen are women thing.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Grayson Perry has never claimed to be anything but a transvestite straight male, as far as I know. He uses the male toilets, even when dressed as his alter ego, Claire. Very few people have an issue with Grayson Perry, just as they didn't have an issue with Eddie/Suzy Izzard until recently.

Edit: IC beat me to it.

Grayson Perry's wife is the psychologist Phillipa Perry. She has a column in The Guardian. This was her answer to whether men should use women's facilities.



The conflation of people who are gender non conforming (for want of a better phrase), for whatever reason, with people who have life long body dysphoria is a large part of why we are where we are on this issue.

 

[multitool]

I don't follow @icowden's assertion that it and trans are so separate as to be binary.

They certainly aren't seperate in the eyes of people who say 'trans women' are men, and mean it in every sense.
ie. the likes of Turning Point, and probably at least one poster in this thread, if not icow.