Gender again. Sorry!

[multitool]

Warning: unless specifically said otherwise everything I post on this forum is an opinion...even when not prefaced with imo for the hard of understanding.

Makes a change from your usual role as self-appointed arbiter

 

[Rusty Nails]

My problem with this thread is the lack of authenticity in discussion. It feels like each time I post, my words are twisted to mean something else, and even things I haven't said at all, are assumed to be my views - mostly the assumptions are incorrect. With such a level of dishonesty, fruitful discussion is all but impossible.

As I had said early on after appearing in this thread, discussion with an absolutists with binary views presenting one side of the argument and people speaking for a minority group on the other, you can guarantee a slanging match. When an absolutist flip flops on their own argument in order to gain arguing points, you know any effort is wasted.

Some three and a half thousand posts in, the lives and rights of trans people continue to be argued over by people with more privilege and more sense of entitlement. It's funny how folk can not see how those who feel angry have just cause.

I view the thread as pointless, and a pure waste of my time. I intend to spend my retirement more gainfully with less anxiety.

Although I thought at the time that some of your comments were OTT I fully understand where they came from, especially given the sensitivity of your personal involvement, and I have learned much more about the transgender issue from your thoughtful and usually evidence based contributions than anyone else's.

 

[newfhouse]

I view the thread as pointless, and a pure waste of my time. I intend to spend my retirement more gainfully with less anxiety.

I can’t say that I blame you but it’s still a shame. I’m still a long way from having solutions to all of the knotty problems but I am at least armed with significantly more knowledge, in large part as a result of your efforts. Thank you.

 

[icowden]

Do you think these deplorables possess or encourage your degree of nuanced thought?

There is no nuance.

Drag Queens are men, almost always gay men who dress in highly sexualised feminine attire, their names are usually highly sexualised as is their act. In the USA someone had the idea of trying to make drag more mainstream by introducing Drag Queen story time. This has upset those in the USA who think that sexualised behaviour is the work of the devil, and they should all be shot (guns are not the work of the devil).

It seems then to have migrated over here. The sort of people getting upset with Drag Queen Story Hour are the puritanical types who believe that this sort of event should be censored and that it is some form of child abuse to show children Drag queens. Personally I don't see the attraction in it, but then I also don't go to see Roy Chubby Brown. If people want to go see them, why not? It's a free country.

This is totally distinct from gender self-id and transitioning. People who want to transition may or may not be gay. They have an issue that they are not comfortable with their body and in some instances will resort to medical mutilation in order to try to change their body to something other than what it is. They wish to live in their chosen gender permanently. They (the genuine ones) tend not to dress in a sexualised way, or in a way that attracts attention. They just want to live like normal men and women. The people who disagree with some of the cult like trans ideology "transwomen are women - say it or lose your career" are women and men who just think we should look into this a bit more, and not just make it easy for any sadistic, perverted moron to get a GRC. Very few people want to see harm to those who genuinely feel that they are trans, and most would happily support them to live the sort of life that they want to live.

Yes, there are right wing nut job extremists who would happily get rid of Drag Queens and Transsexuals, but they are a very small part of the Venn diagram.

If we want to talk about Drag Queens lets have a separate thread.

 

[icowden]

icow excelling himself, here.

Haven't you got homework to do? It's a school day tomorrow.

 

[multitool]

"piss off moron", wasn't it, i***den?

Learned to read yet?

 

[icowden]

Learned to read yet?

Your article has nothing to do with trans ideology whether pro or anti.
Sorry - was I not clear enough for you? I had the impression that you thought you were cleverer than everyone else?

 

[icowden]

Just as an addendum,

The centre of that Venn Diagram is an interesting part indeed. The sort of people who don't like them thar homosexual drag queens are, it seems, buying into the idea of gender reassignment in that they would rather have a "straight" daughter than a "gay" son. There has been some suggestion therefore that there is a subset of people who will push their gay son or daughter towards the idea of transitioning rather than having them be sinful and gay.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Just as an addendum,

The centre of that Venn Diagram is an interesting part indeed. The sort of people who don't like them thar homosexual drag queens are, it seems, buying into the idea of gender reassignment in that they would rather have a "straight" daughter than a "gay" son. There has been some suggestion therefore that there is a subset of people who will push their gay son or daughter towards the idea of transitioning rather than having them be sinful and gay.

Do you have any actual evidence as to why what you say above seems to be the case?

TPUK, the outfit at the forefront of the UK protest mentioned by MT, has a website:

https://tpointuk.co.uk/

Let me ask you again, does that have the look and feel of an organisation that is sympathetic to trans people?

 

[icowden]

Let me ask you again, does that have the look and feel of an organisation that is sympathetic to trans people?

Why does that matter? The point is that a protest about Drag Queen story hour is not the same as protesting gender ideology.
Drag Queens are not transwomen.

Even within a deranged organisation like Turning Point, there will be different reasons for protesting each. The Drag Queen stuff comes under "family values" where as gender identity comes under "woke ideology" or "woke gender nonsense".

We need to stop conflating Drag Queens with Transwomen. Much of the issues being raised re transwomen stems from the unfair treatment and marginalisation of women. The anti-drag sentiment on the other hand is good old homophobia and prurience.

 

[AndyRM]

Why can't transwomen do drag?

 

[multitool]

Your article has nothing to do with trans ideology whether pro or anti.
Sorry - was I not clear enough for you? I had the impression that you thought you were cleverer than everyone else?

"trans ideology". Trans people aren't an ideology, any more than gay people are.

You've had it spelt out to you, and you still can't see it. Of course drag shows aren't explicitly trans...but then I never said they were. I mentioned the 'anti-trans' movement, in this case Turning Point. They are an anti-trans movement, here they are attacking men presenting as women. The drag queens might not be transgender, but make no mistake this IS an attack on transgender people, whether obliquely or not.

 

[icowden]

"trans ideology". Trans people aren't an ideology, any more than gay people are.

Which is why I have never asserted that. There is however a trans ideology whereby transitioning has become part of policital theory and there is a system of ideas and ideals such as "transwomen are women".

You've had it spelt out to you, and you still can't see it. Of course drag shows aren't explicitly trans...

Maybe your spelling needs work. They are not trans at all.

but then I never said they were. I mentioned the 'anti-trans' movement, in this case Turning Point

You posted an article about Drag Queens into a thread about gender ideology.

The draw queen's might not be transgender, but make no mistake this IS an attack on transgender people, whether obliquely or not.

Wow an attack on transgender people by not attacking any transgender people at all, or mentioning them. How does that work exactly?
Sounds very inefficient to me.

 

[icowden]

Why can't transwomen do drag?

They can if they wish. However being a transwoman is not being a Drag Queen.
I'm pretty sure that calling a transwoman a Drag Queen would count as denigration.

 

[icowden]

Do you have any actual evidence as to why what you say above seems to be the case?

This is about Iran:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29832690

But I have seen a similar article about ultra religious Americans.