Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

If you want to present self ID as a danger then the onus is on you to demonstrate the problems it has caused in the 40 other countries with Self ID.

I can't prove a negative.

Every time someone posts evidence of self ID causing problems you dismiss it. This is self ID:

USA, Maine. Transwoman sex offender moved to women's jail:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/maine-transgender-inmate-convicted-murdering-parents-moved-womens-prison

Canada. Transwoman sex offender moved to women's jail:
https://www.westernstandard.news/ne...cle_333ba790-ad3a-11ed-bf5e-1b58e162b92b.html

USA, Wyoming. Female students sue for right to reject transwoman from their sorority:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna77266

Australia. Transwoman sues women only app for access:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...p-giggle-for-girls-for-alleged-discrimination

What's weird is that you demand evidence from the women's rights side, yet you've provided no evidence whatsoever as to why certain men should be treated differently from other men. You've called transwomen a 'subset of women' and provide no evidence as to how this can be the case other than 'because they say so'.

 

[multitool]

Is that it?

Four citations out of all the countries with self ID and their hundreds of millions of inhabitants? Four?

And that is even before we examine the individual cases to decide if they are, indeed, what you are claiming them to be ...what with your history of distortion and misrepresentation.*

I can find you THOUSANDS of child abuse cases from UK alone committed by women. THOUSANDS.

*And lo. It took me 5 seconds to find that the Maine prison case you cite is not a self ID issue.

 

[multitool]

. You've called transwomen a 'subset of women' and provide no evidence as to how this can be the case other than 'because they say so'.

LOL. You can't help yourself can you. Fortunately I have the receipts

Easily. They can be a subset of women, just as trans men are a subset of men.

This could be recognised in law IF and WHERE necessary...for example women's spaces.

This was from a theoretical discussion about language and law, in line with Claudine's OP. I've bolded the verbs that are in the conditional (can/could) rather than simple present (are).

Another Aurora classic. Misrepresentation. Honestly, you are like some sort of 3rd rate twitter troll. It doesn't wash here.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Is that it?

Four citations out of all the countries with self ID and their hundreds of millions of inhabitants? Four?

And that is even before we examine the individual cases to decide if they are, indeed, what you are claiming them to be ...what with your history of distortion and misrepresentation.*

I can find you THOUSANDS of child abuse cases from UK alone committed by women. THOUSANDS.

*And lo. It took me 5 seconds to find that the Maine prison case you cite is not a self ID issue.

The result of a comprehensive self ID policy - which is what trans activists want - means a complete end to single sex spaces, whether it's prisons, sports, sorority houses, refuges, even apps for women.

St Andrews hockey club has a transwoman playing on the women's team by the way, so self ID is alive and well in the UK already:

https://reduxx.info/exclusive-trans...mens-field-hockey-club-injured-female-player/

Another jail transfer in the US. I can find a lot more of these but it wouldn't matter because you still wouldn't find it a problem

https://reduxx.info/father-who-sexu...y-now-recorded-as-a-female-offender-by-njdoc/

There have been 27 transwomen transfers into New Jersey's only women's prison in recent years.

You can certainly find violent women offenders but they are massively outnumbered in crime statistics by violent male offenders.

What you have failed to show is why special accommodations should be given to men who don't want to be men, over and above what is given to other men. Or rather ones who say they aren't men; I don't think for a minute all those trans prisoners seeking moves to women's prisons are genuine.

Let's have the full quote about 'sub sets'.

Surely if transmen are a subset of men as you say, transwomen are a subset of women.

'If and where necessary' is interesting though. Almost as if you don't actually think they are women all of the time.

So are transwomen women, a subset of women, or something else? If so what? Are they women all the time? If the suggestion is to treat them as women sometimes, but as men at other times, I think you'll find that will be regarded as transphobic.

 

[multitool]

I didn't say trans women are a subset of women.

 

[AuroraSaab]

So transmen are a subset of men, but transwomen aren't a subset of women? How does that work?

Are transwomen women or not, in your view? And if they are how would you justify not treating them exactly as biological women are treated in every single circumstance?

This is why sports is so contentious. If they aren't women in sports, they aren't really women anywhere.

Edit: Newsnight journalist Hannah Barnes has been shortlisted for the prestigious Orwell Prize for her book about the Tavistock gender clinic. More coverage of the book hopefully.

 

[multitool]

You'll have to go back and view my post in the context of the discussion at that point in the thread, rather than attempt to decontextualise it and set up a straw man.

Honestly. I can't be arsed. This wouldn't pass muster in a 6th form debate.

 

[multitool]

Edit: Newsnight journalist Hannah Barnes has been shortlisted for the prestigious Orwell Prize for her book about the Tavistock gender clinic. More coverage of the book hopefully.

Edit: Tavistock is still open, and will remain open until this time next year.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Yes, it takes a while to set up services to replace monumental failures like the Tavistock, especially when they are going to offer a wider holistic approach rather than the single track ideology of automatic affirmation. The real shame is Polly Carmichael has kept her job despite the increasing rearch that there is little positive of the benefit of the affirmative approach to gender distress in adolescents.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11930-023-00358-x

 

[multitool]

Not sure what you were linking to, as it just links to an index.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Don't know why a direct link won't work. It's in the article mentioned here, first link.

https://segm.org/current-concerns-gender-affirming-therapy-adolescents

One of the criticisms of the Tavistock was failure to follow up children they treated. They have no idea if their affirmative approach and puberty blockers/cross sex hormones had any long term psychological benefit. It's also one of the reasons European countries are walking back the affirmative approach, including the Dutch on whose research the whole system was based. They realised that children with body dysphoria (and then affirming them and putting them on a medical pathway) is a very different cohort to adults in their 40's and 50's who had felt body dysphoria for decades.

 

[classic33]

Every time someone posts evidence of self ID causing problems you dismiss it. This is self ID:

USA, Maine. Transwoman sex offender moved to women's jail:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/maine-transgender-inmate-convicted-murdering-parents-moved-womens-prison

Canada. Transwoman sex offender moved to women's jail:
https://www.westernstandard.news/ne...cle_333ba790-ad3a-11ed-bf5e-1b58e162b92b.html

USA, Wyoming. Female students sue for right to reject transwoman from their sorority:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna77266

Australia. Transwoman sues women only app for access:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...p-giggle-for-girls-for-alleged-discrimination

What's weird is that you demand evidence from the women's rights side, yet you've provided no evidence whatsoever as to why certain men should be treated differently from other men. You've called transwomen a 'subset of women' and provide no evidence as to how this can be the case other than 'because they say so'.

Where's the proof they're more of a danger to any other inmate, than any other inmate, in the same, prison for the same crime?

You throw in these links, but I'm left wondering if you ever bother to any further than the headlines, which suit your "cause".


If we go back on the toilets and disabled in particular, speaking to someone slightly older than me, who's wife was wheelchair bound, amongst other problems. He said disabled toilets became more common as disabled people started getting out more. But "normal people" didn't want to have to use the same spaces/areas as people like his wife were using. Nor should they be expected to have to do so. Their privacy and dignity was much more important than that of another person.

I've experienced some of that, but nothing on the level his wife received.

 

[multitool]

https://segm.org/current-concerns-gender-affirming-therapy-adolescents

I'm highly suspicious of the SEGM.

I wonder if I scratch beneath the surface whether I'll start finding links to and funding from US Christian Evangelical groups and hard-right Conservative pressure groups.

One of the criticisms of the Tavistock was failure to follow up children they treated. They have no idea if their affirmative approach and puberty blockers/cross sex hormones had any long term psychological benefit. It's also one of the reasons European countries are walking back the affirmative approach, including the Dutch on whose research the whole system was based. They realised that children with body dysphoria (and then affirming them and putting them on a medical pathway) is a very different cohort to adults in their 40's and 50's who had felt body dysphoria for decades.

Tavistock was unable to meet demand, waiting lists were years, and the service so small that expertise was not able to be pooled. This is why the recommendation is for the service to be expanded, not shrunk.

Is there a single area in the intersection of psychological and physical medicine which is not in some way controversial or problematic? Look at the treatment of depression for several decades. It was noted that epileptics do not suffer from severe depression, so the solution was to make depressives have fits, using ECT. What about leuchotomy? Removing part of the frontal lobe to treat schizophrenia on the basis that some classical chap got a spear through the head and calmed down a bit afterwards?

We are very good at treating physical issues, but poor at dealing with mental health. Pretending that the mental conditions don't exist isn't helpful, nor is failing to understand that the treatment is evolving. Least helpful is whipping up a moral panic for use by the Evangelical right, with untruths about puberty blockers being handed out like smarties and 12 years having their genitalia removed at the merest mention that they don't feel comfortable with their gender. The young people referred to GIDS are in a severe state. They need care. It is absolutely right that the care should be assessed, reassessed and evolve.

There are many positives in the Cass report, not least that the service is set for expansion.

 

[icowden]

She didn't just say that though, did she. She also said...

Quite right.

Obviously quoting a single tweet out of context from an argument where she was talking about the issue of men "portraying" women under the guise of trans completely invalidates all of her views, makes any of her points worthless, and by proxy invalidates anything said by anyone who supported her views or was friendly towards her.

Well done you. It's almost like you want to shut down conversation again.

 

[multitool]

Quite right.

Obviously quoting a single tweet out of context from an argument where she was talking about the issue of men "portraying" women under the guise of trans completely invalidates all of her views, makes any of her points worthless, and by proxy invalidates anything said by anyone who supported her views or was friendly towards her.

Well done you. It's almost like you want to shut down conversation again.

Only icow could think that me putting up a tweet is "shutting down discussion" rather than opening it up. And Berns wasn't just talking about men "portraying" women, she was explicitly and overtly calling TW perverted, sick fetishists.

That IS context. It shows very clearly where her views on TW were coming from.

Do you agree with her, icow?