Gender again. Sorry!

[Bromptonaut]

Perhaps you could give me a list of women's mannerisms. I could check myself and make sure I am 'womaning' correctly.

What's the point in posting that barb?

If you watch people you'll soon see that men and women use movements, minor gestures etc in different ways. Some are perhaps biologically driven (eg walking with female hips/thighs) others learned. Somebody transitioning will want to take note of those so they're not seen as a bloke in a dress.

 

[matticus]

AS has stated quite clearly that this increase in sex offences (whether or not they occur) couldn't be recorded post self IDing becoming accepted for crime stats, because crimes committed by transwomen would be recorded as having been committed by women.

Indeed.

I'm struggling to see any flaw with this - especially members so keen to support the use of science and logic (when it suits them).

 

[Ian H]

Indeed.

I'm struggling to see any flaw with this - especially members so keen to support the use of science and logic (when it suits them).

The article reports the highest rate of assault 'since 1996'. What was different in 1996? Linked reports show a complex picture in which trans people most likely to be victims of assaults (quite probably exacerbated by media scare-stories). Add in variables in reporting and recording, and you might wonder whether the 0.24% of Canadians self-IDed as trans are a significant problem.

 

[matticus]

The article reports the highest rate of <blah>

Nothing to do with what I posted (except for being on this thread).

Happy to address what you think about what I DID post!

 

[icowden]

Here's another great example of how dangerous women can be;

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/us-news/daughter-22-charged-murdering-dad-28859294

The article doesn't mention once that the "daughter" is actually a trans woman.

 

[Ian H]

Nothing to do with what I posted (except for being on this thread).

Happy to address what you think about what I DID post!

It refers specifically to flaws in interpreting the reportage.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Here's another great example of how dangerous women can be;

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/us-news/daughter-22-charged-murdering-dad-28859294

The article doesn't mention once that the "daughter" is actually a trans woman.

How do you know Nikki is a transwoman and whether that is of any relevance to the crime?

The narrative from a neighbour about 'girls abandoned by their mother' suggests transition took place some time ago.

 

[matticus]

It refers specifically to flaws in interpreting the reportage.

I specifically referred to a different flaw. The one that was clearly discussed in Mudstick's post.

Take your whataboutery elsewhere please!

 

[winjim]

How do you know Nikki is a transwoman and whether that is of any relevance to the crime?

The narrative from a neighbour about 'girls abandoned by their mother' suggests transition took place some time ago.

I would think if it's relevant to the case then it'll come out in court, won't it? She is, or should be, considered innocent until proven guilty and I think that part of that presumption of innocence should include not speculating unnecessarily about her gender identity or its implications.

 

[AuroraSaab]

What's the point in posting that barb?

If you watch people you'll soon see that men and women use movements, minor gestures etc in different ways. Some are perhaps biologically driven (eg walking with female hips/thighs) others learned. Somebody transitioning will want to take note of those so they're not seen as a bloke in a dress.

Because it's insulting to suggest that a man who performs femininity is a woman, or less of a man than any other man. A costume and a collection of minor gestures does not make you a woman. This is the same mentality that results in calling non-conforming men and women abusive names because they aren't stereotypical for their sex.

 

[theclaud]

I would think if it's relevant to the case then it'll come out in court, won't it? She is, or should be, considered innocent until proven guilty and I think that part of that presumption of innocence should include not speculating unnecessarily about her gender identity or its implications.

I know I'm mostly at loggerheads with Aurora on this one, but it seems Secondino is an openly trans model and minor social media influencer, who has given interviews mentioning it. The compromise media convention on cases like this seems to have become that the text refers to the alleged perpetrator as a woman but often accompanies images which can be recognised (arguably in this case but more strikingly in others) as a trans woman or man. It's quite a rare sort of a crime for a woman to commit, and quite a conventional entry in the catalogue of male violence. I don't think it helps frank discussion about gender-based violence to pretend that transition eliminates violent tendencies or negates histories, even though it may have no direct relevance to the motivation for the crime. This matters because people who are not already invested in the debate read reports like this and think WTF.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I would think if it's relevant to the case then it'll come out in court, won't it? She is, or should be, considered innocent until proven guilty and I think that part of that presumption of innocence should include not speculating unnecessarily about her gender identity or its implications.

The person in question has a lot on social media, and in fact has quite a bit of You Tube etc. content where they talk at length about transitioning (in their mid teens, iirc) and how supportive their family were.

Regardless of the outcome of the trial, I wouldn't regard this person as someone seeking to take advantage of self-ID.

Shouldn't be recorded in the female crime stats though, and shouldn't be in a women's prison. They are currently being held at Rikers Island which has a separate facility for transwomen on remand.

Murder by women, and sex crimes by women especially, are pretty rare and just a few cases can skew the statistics.

Edit: just seen the above post hence repetition of info.

 

[icowden]

How do you know Nikki is a transwoman and whether that is of any relevance to the crime?
The narrative from a neighbour about 'girls abandoned by their mother' suggests transition took place some time ago.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...eligious-father-head-hammer-stabbing-him.html
https://original.newsbreak.com/@lav...confessing-to-deadly-attack-on-dad-and-sister

I read several accounts of the crime where "she" brutally murdered her very religious father with a hammer then stabbed her sister multiple times. Her father seems to have been very supportive of his former son, but for whatever reason Nikki flipped out and attacked him with a hammer before taking a knife to her sister.

It takes a bit of strength to kill someone with a hammer - it's not usually the weapon of choice of the fairer sex. But, as @AuroraSaab has pointed out - this will be recorded as a crime committed by a woman and Nikki will likely push to go to a women's prison.

 

[winjim]

I know I'm mostly at loggerheads with Aurora on this one, but it seems Secondino is an openly trans model and minor social media influencer, who has given interviews mentioning it. The compromise media convention on cases like this seems to have become that the text refers to the alleged perpetrator as a woman but often accompanies images which can be recognised (arguably in this case but more strikingly in others) as a trans woman or man. It's quite a rare sort of a crime for a woman to commit, and quite a conventional entry in the catalogue of male violence. I don't think it helps frank discussion about gender-based violence to pretend that transition eliminates violent tendencies or negates histories, even though it may have no direct relevance to the motivation for the crime. This matters because people who are not already invested in the debate read reports like this and think WTF.

I don't want to pretend that none of that matters and I suppose it might make more sense to discuss it now that she's been charged rather than simply arrested. My concern I think comes from a dislike of the 'perp walk' favoured by American police which I think goes against the idea of the presumption of innocence. When I first saw this story it was as if Secondino was being paraded in front of the cameras and the story came to my attention purely due to a load of people on twitter screaming 'but she's a man!' It all seemed very salacious and disrespectful to me.

I know I'm mostly at loggerheads... , but...

It's all or nothing mate, pick a side.

 

[Rusty Nails]

It's all or nothing mate, pick a side.

Because it's clearly a simple binary argument. 100% right vs 100% wrong.