Gender again. Sorry!

[classic33]

Personally, I wouldn't roll back the GRA. I know a lot of feminists think it's poor and confusing legislation but it does serve a purpose. I can see the issues with it but it does ensure some legal accommodation.

The contradictory notion is seen throughout this thread with some of you guys seeming to suggest that men can be women in some contexts but not others. How can that possibly be?

For example, there really doesn't seem to be much full on support for self ID in to the women's category in all sports on here. Or at least noone is coming out and saying it directly. But yet there's support for the general idea of self-ID. But if they aren't women in sport, they can't really be women anywhere, can they?

And whilst it's not really 'All or nothing' I think you'll find that if you don't support transwomen self-IDing into all women's sport, and/or aren't willing to include trans people in your dating pool, then transactivists would probably regard you as as big a 'Terf' as I am.

So welcome to the dark side, fellas.

The sport side was done to death, with no more movement than this thread. The one thing I've noticed is the US athlete who failed to qualify for the US team is now considered to be male, by yourself, meaning that she shouldn't be allowed to compete in a women only race.
If you want an open category in sporting events, why do you also only want a women's only category?
This open category would presumably include women who are transitioning to men. Born a woman, but not allowed to compete in a women only category. Why, given your basic requirement, born female has been met.

Barbie(Ireland) was 12 when he came to the attention of authorities, due to his behaviour. 14 saw him court for assault. And the certificate that allowed him to "self identify" as female, was issued before he was legally old enough to apply for the paperwork. Meaning that someone else handled the application for him.

She was 17 when she assaulted the Garda in the squad car. The piece you posted a link to in NACA on cyclechat.
There's currently two petitions to get her out off Limerick prison, if you're interested in either.

Given the behaviour at the age of 12, and again at 14, I'd say there were other issues that never got mentioned.
Her make-up "style" is more akin to The Joker in the batman series. My opinion only. There's even a picture(may require a bit of searching to locate) of her wearing a pair of knickers on her head, as though it was the most normal thing in the world. Not something you'd expect to see anyone doing whilst walking down the street. Do you consider the wearing of underwear on your head normal behaviour, whatever the gender/sex of the person doing it?

There's a court order that has meant a lot of what was there to see a few years ago, has had to be removed.

 

[theclaud]

Personally, I wouldn't roll back the GRA. I know a lot of feminists think it's poor and confusing legislation but it does serve a purpose. I can see the issues with it but it does ensure some legal accommodation.

The contradictory notion is seen throughout this thread with some of you guys seeming to suggest that men can be women in some contexts but not others. How can that possibly be?

For example, there really doesn't seem to be much full on support for self ID in to the women's category in all sports on here. Or at least noone is coming out and saying it directly. But yet there's support for the general idea of self-ID. But if they aren't women in sport, they can't really be women anywhere, can they?

And whilst it's not really 'All or nothing' I think you'll find that if you don't support transwomen self-IDing into all women's sport, and/or aren't willing to include trans people in your dating pool, then transactivists would probably regard you as as big a 'Terf' as I am.

So welcome to the dark side, fellas.

TBH it's news to me that I have a 'dating pool'...

 

[AuroraSaab]

I presume you mean Lia Thomas? They have a retained male advantage that a reduction in testosterone does not reduce by much. It is unfair to allow them to compete in the female category.

The proposal in some sports has been to have a protected Women's category for biological women only, plus an Open category that basically anyone can enter, including exceptionally good biological women. Transwomen would enter this category but (presumably) be recorded as entering it as women. This preserves the fairness of the female category whilst not making transwomen compete as men. I think this is a good solution.

I want a protected Woman's category because women would have no chance if there was one category (the Open category), in most sports anyway, because they would be competing against men and transwomen who have unfair advantage.

I would guess that transmen not on testosterone could compete in either category - the one that reflects their biology or the one that reflects their sense of self. That seems fair.

I agree that Barbie Khardashian is a very sad and harrowing case. Possibly earlier psychiatric intervention might have prevented the events that led to their imprisonment. But it didn't so we have to deal with BK as they are now; a disturbed, violent, adult male housed amongst women.

Difficult as their life has been, women prisoners are not human shields for males with psychiatric issues, however sad their life as a child was. Your argument that they had a difficult childhood could apply to half the men in the prison system - all of whom are successfully accommodated within the male estate.

I don't care how Barbie Khardashian looks. Yes, they are obviously a very disturbed individual but would you prefer they were moved to a psychiatric hospital? It would have to be a women's ward. I find that idea very unappealing.

 

[AuroraSaab]

TBH it's news to me that I have a 'dating pool'...

'There's a lid for every pot'.

 

[Ian H]

TBH it's news to me that I have a 'dating pool'...

Is it related to a birthing pool or have I got the entirely wrong end of the shovel?

 

[AuroraSaab]

We aren't using 'birthing pool' any more, Ian. It's not gender neutral enough. It's now 'baby chute receptacle'.

Genuine question though, Ian. I'm going to assume you're a heterosexual. Would you date a transwoman? Fair enough if you think it's a private matter and don't wish to answer.

 

[classic33]

I presume you mean Lia Thomas? They have a retained male advantage that a reduction in testosterone does not reduce by much. It is unfair to allow them to compete in the female category.

The proposal in some sports has been to have a protected Women's category for biological women only, plus an Open category that basically anyone can enter, including exceptionally good biological women. Transwomen would enter this category but (presumably) be recorded as entering it as women. This preserves the fairness of the female category whilst not making transwomen compete as men. I think this is a good solution.

I want a protected Woman's category because women would have no chance if there was one category (the Open category), in most sports anyway, because they would be competing against men and transwomen who have unfair advantage.

I would guess that transmen not on testosterone could compete in either category - the one that reflects their biology or the one that reflects their sense of self. That seems fair.

I agree that Barbie Khardashian is a very sad and harrowing case. Possibly earlier psychiatric intervention might have prevented the events that led to their imprisonment. But it didn't so we have to deal with BK as they are now; a disturbed, violent, adult male housed amongst women.

Difficult as their life has been, women prisoners are not human shields for males with psychiatric issues, however sad their life as a child was. Your argument that they had a difficult childhood could apply to half the men in the prison system - all of whom are successfully accommodated within the male estate.

I don't care how Barbie Khardashian looks. Yes, they are obviously a very disturbed individual but would you prefer they were moved to a psychiatric hospital? It would have to be a women's ward. I find that idea very unappealing.

No, the person I have in mind ran for "her home country" having failed to make the US Olympic squad. Back then she was female through birth, according to you, with an abnormally high testosterone level. Having to reduce it to compete. Now she is a he, with an unfair advantage.


Barbie Kardashion is legally a woman. You may not like that, but it's the law. And isolation in Limerick prison isn't using women prisoners as a human shield.

How many of those who had a troubled childhood have transitioned either way though?

 

[Fab Foodie]

Where's the RSBB's thread?

 

[theclaud]

Where's the RSBB thread?

The Café is thataway >>>>>

 

[AuroraSaab]

1. No, the person I have in mind ran for "her home country" having failed to make the US Olympic squad. Back then she was female through birth, according to you, with an abnormally high testosterone level. Having to reduce it to compete. Now she is a he, with an unfair advantage.


2. Barbie Kardashion is legally a woman. You may not like that, but it's the law. And isolation in Limerick prison isn't using women prisoners as a human shield.

3. How many of those who had a troubled childhood have transitioned either way though?

1. Unless you tell me their name I can't really answer. If you are talking about intersex athletes, that is a medical condition and an entirely different thing altogether.

2. Yes, it's the law. The self-ID law. And it shouldn't be the law because women are not safe when housed with violent men.

3. Lots of them. A worryingly high number of those referred to gender clinics as children are autistic, gay, or have mental health issues. Children in care are also overrpresented in the numbers. It's almost as If these kids have a whole load of other stuff going on that might be influencing their decision making. All the more reason for thorough evaluation and 'watchful waiting' as most kids don't persist after going through puberty.

 

[Fab Foodie]

The Café is thataway >>>>>

Phew....

 

[Ian H]

We aren't using 'birthing pool' any more, Ian. It's not gender neutral enough. It's now 'baby chute receptacle'.

Genuine question though, Ian. I'm going to assume you're a heterosexual. Would you date a transwoman? Fair enough if you think it's a private matter and don't wish to answer.

There are limits to what I'll discuss on an open forum.

 

[AuroraSaab]

No problem. I was just trying to get my head around the 'sometimes they're in the male category, sometimes they're in the female, depending on context' thing.

 

[multitool]

Heaven forfend that nuance should exist, nor that it may be effectively reflected in law.

 

[Deleted member 28]

There are limits to what I'll discuss on an open forum.

Yes or No would do, not really a discussion.