Gender again. Sorry!

[icowden]

You haven't addressed the point in hand, but instead resort to childish ad hom

I have but it seems to be beyond your comprehension. I will bow to your 12 year old expertise in ad hominem attacks and name calling.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I have as much personal experience around these issues as you do, I suspect. Additionally though, I might ask what personal experience do you have of being female that allows you to dictate that men can be women?

I wasn't radicalised by hate sites. Like everybody else I saw the push to allow males access to female spaces and did the reading on that and associated issues.

I think it's you who is blinded by your preconceptions. 'The Tavistock is so good they're not closing it they're opening more just the same!'....'No men are winning in women's sports so it doesn't matter!'.....'It's not social contagion' ... no, it's just a coincidence most of those referred to gender clinics are teenage girls and that 50 year old blokes are crushing it in competitive cycling.

 

[classic33]

I have as much personal experience around these issues as you do, I suspect. Additionally though, I might ask what personal experience do you have of being female that allows you to dictate that men can be women?

I wasn't radicalised by hate sites. Like everybody else I saw the push to allow males access to female spaces and did the reading on that and associated issues.

I think it's you who is blinded by your preconceptions. 'The Tavistock is so good they're not closing it they're opening more just the same!'....'No men are winning in women's sports so it doesn't matter!'.....'It's not social contagion' ... no, it's just a coincidence most of those referred to gender clinics are teenage girls and that 50 year old blokes are crushing it in competitive cycling.

Sue Evans, in the link you posted, would appear to disagree with that bit.
"Patients were mostly biological boys, many suffering from complex problems including autism and anxiety, or struggling with their sexuality — all territory that Sue, as a clinical nurse therapist, felt was vital to explore in full."

Who's correct, a person that worked there for 4 years, despite disagreeing with what was done in those 4 years, or you?

There's a crowdfund page with just short of £100,000 raised to bring a court case to review the work done. Set up by her nearly three years ago, now sitting idle. And then there's the interview with a newspaper that many on here don't hold in high esteem. Was the interview given free, or did money change hands?*

*A question I'd ask when someone does something like this, about a place that employed them. Not just in this case.

 

[multitool]

Yes the people on the side of women have to put up with nutcases the same as everyone else. Of course all the people calling women c*nts and threatening to kill them are just angels.

"On the side of women". But they aren't. The push to end abortion in the UK is already starting and it is these people and their proxies in power, like Cates.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Sue Evans, in the link you posted, would appear to disagree with that bit.
"Patients were mostly biological boys, many suffering from complex problems including autism and anxiety, or struggling with their sexuality — all territory that Sue, as a clinical nurse therapist, felt was vital to explore in full."

Who's correct, a person that worked there for 4 years, despite disagreeing with what was done in those 4 years, or you?

That's the whole point, Classic. She didn't think they were 'exploring'. Why did they feel unhappy in their bodies? Were they gay? Were they autistic? The kids were just affirmed in their new identity and given meds without thorough exploration of their wider issues.

 

[multitool]

I have as much personal experience around these issues as you do, I suspect.

I know that you don't. In fact, your actual experience is zero.

 

[multitool]

I have but it seems to be beyond your comprehension. I will bow to your 12 year old expertise in ad hominem attacks and name calling.

What names have I called you?

 

[AuroraSaab]

I know that you don't. In fact, your actual experience is zero.

My experience is zero? I have no experience of the issues that affect biological women? Or why women need single sex services and spaces? I do, but even if I didn't you wouldn't need experience of being in prison to know men in women's jails is wrong, or need to be an elite cyclist to know men in women's sports isn't right either.

 

[classic33]

That's the whole point, Classic. She didn't think they were 'exploring'. Why did they feel unhappy in their bodies? Were they gay? Were they autistic? The kids were just affirmed in their new identity and given meds without thorough exploration of their wider issues.

That's your point though. You keep on repeating that it was mainly young girls going there, she, as someone who worked there along with her husband, actually saw who was being referred there. She says it was mainly young boys, which is in direct opposition to what you claim.

Any figures she quotes for after she left can not be relied upon. They'd be secondhand information at best.

 

[classic33]

My experience is zero? I have no experience of the issues that affect biological women? Or why women need single sex services and spaces? I do, but even if I didn't you wouldn't need experience of being in prison to know men in women's jails is wrong, or need to be an elite cyclist to know men in women's sports isn't right either.

Female staff in male prisons wouldn't count then?

Can you explain how trans women can't be women, but trans men are men. Your whole argument is one sided.

Maybe you can explain why women in boys single sex spaces should be acceptable. Given that you're for single sex spaces remaining just that. Explain the discrepancy.

 

[icowden]

"On the side of women". But they aren't. The push to end abortion in the UK is already starting and it is these people and their proxies in power, like Cates.

Why do you insist on conflating things into black and white? There are plenty of women concerned about women's rights and who also support the right of a woman to control her own body including abortion rights. A proportion of those are concerned about what the rights of transwomen are and whether they might impinge or devalue what it is to be a woman.

These are not the same people as the ultra-right ban trans, ban gay, ban abortion people. These are a different group, largely a contagion from the USA.

As I have said before, if there is no issue with trans rights, then why call women "people who menstruate"? Why burn books and try to block filming because an author says she has some sympathy with trans people but also some concerns that women should remain protected in certain situations?

If it is all so cut and dried, why are people going out of their way to "cancel" lectures, shows etc? Why is it verboten to disagree with the statement "transwomen are women"? Why were celebrities made to say it like a mantra?

JK Rowling was accused multiple times of trans genocide. She has received death threats, had events cancelled and had to increase her own security. Why? If these people supporting trans rights are all lovely and have good arguments, why are they so afraid to have them challenged? Why are they afraid of discussion? Why are they afraid of participating in forum discussions where they can explain that there are already safeguards in place?

@monkers has done a really good job in explaining why a lot of the issues aren't really issues. I think some areas are still more contentious and disagree with her on some points, but certainly I have changed my viewpoint from the start of the discussion. Isn't that the point of this?

 

[Bromptonaut]

That's your point though. You keep on repeating that it was mainly young girls going there, she, as someone who worked there along with her husband, actually saw who was being referred there. She says it was mainly young boys, which is in direct opposition to what you claim.

Any figures she quotes for after she left can not be relied upon. They'd be secondhand information at best.

I've only scanned the report from the Mail. It seems though to say that while, when Sue Evans started the patients were mainly males. The trend for many more females to present, many of them struggling with puberty related changes to their bodies, is more recent.

That is consistent with other reports.

 

[classic33]

Why do you insist on conflating things into black and white? There are plenty of women concerned about women's rights and who also support the right of a woman to control her own body including abortion rights. A proportion of those are concerned about what the rights of transwomen are and whether they might impinge or devalue what it is to be a woman.

These are not the same people as the ultra-right ban trans, ban gay, ban abortion people. These are a different group, largely a contagion from the USA.

As I have said before, if there is no issue with trans rights, then why call women "people who menstruate"? Why burn books and try to block filming because an author says she has some sympathy with trans people but also some concerns that women should remain protected in certain situations?

If it is all so cut and dried, why are people going out of their way to "cancel" lectures, shows etc? Why is it verboten to disagree with the statement "transwomen are women"? Why were celebrities made to say it like a mantra?

JK Rowling was accused multiple times of trans genocide. She has received death threats, had events cancelled and had to increase her own security. Why? If these people supporting trans rights are all lovely and have good arguments, why are they so afraid to have them challenged? Why are they afraid of discussion? Why are they afraid of participating in forum discussions where they can explain that there are already safeguards in place?

@monkers has done a really good job in explaining why a lot of the issues aren't really issues. I think some areas are still more contentious and disagree with her on some points, but certainly I have changed my viewpoint from the start of the discussion. Isn't that the point of this?

I was made aware, by a trans man, of this.
https://www.healthline.com/health/do-men-have-periods

New/other research on the same is available.

 

[classic33]

I've only scanned the report from the Mail. It seems though to say that while, when Sue Evans started the patients were mainly males. The trend for many more females to present, many of them struggling with puberty related changes to their bodies, is more recent.

That is consistent with other reports.

Details of what happened after she left, would be second hand information. She'd have no legal access to hospital or patient records.

 

[AuroraSaab]

A period is the shedding of the lining of the uterus in women. Physical and emotional changes in a male body as a result of the introduction of external hormones are just that. They aren't a menstrual period.