Gender again. Sorry!

[multitool]

My experience is zero? I have no experience of the issues that affect biological women? Or why women need single sex services and spaces? I do, but even if I didn't you wouldn't need experience of being in prison to know men in women's jails is wrong, or need to be an elite cyclist to know men in women's sports isn't right either.

That isn't what I said. I said you have no example of trans women or, more saliently, trans women actually affecting you.

It's all some weird hypothetical.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Details of what happened after she left, would be second hand information. She'd have no legal access to hospital or patient records.

The official figures for the Tavistock are common knowledge and widely reported. I've put them in here at least once. It has been the same pattern elsewhere too.

That isn't what I said. I said you have no example of trans women or, more saliently, trans women actually affecting you.

It's all some weird hypothetical.

How can you possibly know this? Lol. I could just as easily say you have no idea how women feel about single sex spaces so you have no right to comment on those either.

Again though you would need to prove how and why transwomen are magically different in order to justify treating them differently from every other man. Otherwise you're really just arguing for everything to be unisex and we all know why that would be a terrible idea.

 

[multitool]

Why do you insist on conflating things into black and white? There are plenty of women concerned about women's rights and who also support the right of a woman to control her own body including abortion rights. A proportion of those are concerned about what the rights of transwomen are and whether they might impinge or devalue what it is to be a woman.

These are not the same people as the ultra-right ban trans, ban gay, ban abortion people. These are a different group, largely a contagion from the USA.

And you think that matters?

You think people distinguish between the good transphobes and the bad transphobes? This conflagration sprung up in the last handful of years. Why, when trans women have been around for decades? They've been quietly using women's loos, had access to refuges etc without any issue. So, why now? I know the answer, and it is to do with online radicalisation and the co-opting of people like you and AS by the hard-right. You don't seem to understand that you might not be hard-right, but you are helping them....which is why you are, in your own small way, helping the attack on REAL women's rights, like access to abortion, rather than this confected nonsense about trans women. You are the useful idiot.

As I have said before, if there is no issue with trans rights, then why call women "people who menstruate"?

Because some trans men have periods. And that language is used by specific groups in specific circumstances to help get trans men to use services like health care. It isn't about you, or what you think, or indeed about cis women, and it isn't about 'erasing women' by ceasing to use the word woman

Why burn books and try to block filming because an author says she has some sympathy with trans people but also some concerns that women should remain protected in certain situations?

The anti-trans thing is a cult. If you look at JK she isn't saying the same things she was when she first got sucked in. Nor is Sharron Davies. They've expanded beyond their initial remit towards a general intolerance of trans women. In this thread Aurora started off just claiming to be concerned about women's spaces, but unwittingly the more you press her, especially if she gets angry, the more the actual spite towards trans women comes out.

If it is all so cut and dried, why are people going out of their way to "cancel" lectures, shows etc? Why is it verboten to disagree with the statement "transwomen are women"? Why were celebrities made to say it like a mantra?

Because they are fighting a war against intolerance. "Trans women are women" means something entirely different to me than it does to you. It doesn't mean they are biological women, it means that socially they are women. I know that is a step too far for you because you have an aspergic inability to see nuance. Also very little natural empathy.

JK Rowling was accused multiple times of trans genocide. She has received death threats, had events cancelled and had to increase her own security. Why? If these people supporting trans rights are all lovely and have good arguments, why are they so afraid to have them challenged? Why are they afraid of discussion? Why are they afraid of participating in forum discussions where they can explain that there are already safeguards in place?

Who says they are all lovely and good? I didn't. There are some right peanuts in the TRA movement, and some of them engage in activities that undermine their own cause. The big difference is that they have little voice and little power. As I've said before, outside of twitter you almost never hear from a trans person. You hear anti-trans sentiment from the actual fücking Prime Minister of the country.

@monkers has done a really good job in explaining why a lot of the issues aren't really issues. I think some areas are still more contentious and disagree with her on some points, but certainly I have changed my viewpoint from the start of the discussion. Isn't that the point of this?

Good, I'm pleased. You should listen to her some more and stop listening to the weirdo zealots like Aurora. Another possibility would be to have an actual face-to-face conversation with a trans woman and ask them what their life is like and what pressures they face. Maybe try and see things from their perspective. Maybe realise they are humans. But the chances are you won't, not because you are a hate-filled bigot (which I don't think you are) but because you are extremely unlikely to meet one given they are as rare as hens teeth.

 

[classic33]

A period is the shedding of the lining of the uterus in women. Physical and emotional changes in a male body as a result of the introduction of external hormones are just that. They aren't a menstrual period.

Yo're saying that those who have done the research are wrong the, and you know better?
There is no introduction of external hormones, it's naturally occurring(within the body).

This post assumes you are referring to the link posted earlier by myself.

 

[multitool]

How can you possibly know this? Lol.

How do I know? Firstly because you would have told us, and secondly because it's just so obvious.

I could just as easily say you have no idea how women feel about single sex spaces so you have no right to comment on those either.

That would be a different point, and would be deflection, but actually you'd be wrong. You don't know how TW feel because you've never spoken to one in any sort of empathetic way. I know how women feel about women's spaces because I have been surrounded by them all my life, and have had one (now two) living in my house for decades, and we do actually talk about things.

Funnily enough, my wife actually talks to TW (and TM) more than I do. She works in a very large organisation with a comparatively high number of trans gender people, so despite all your ignorant hypothetical guff she actually tells me what the realities of sharing women's spaces with TW are, because she does it every time she works in the HQ.

Yesterday she told me that the only problem with gender neutral toilets is the possibility of encountering a cis male colleague she finds really creepy, and that she'd feel more comfortable using a women only toilet, with the TW.

A part of her job is as a Diversity Lead, and given that she is not 'right on' in any sense she went out of her way to speak to the diverse groups (including TW) and find out what their lives were like and the issues they face, and how sensible accommodations could be made. I've learned a lot from her.

So, when you say how do I know that you have had no contact with TW, believe me I know.

 

[icowden]

Yo're saying that those who have done the research are wrong the, and you know better?
There is no introduction of external hormones, it's naturally occurring(within the body).

So how do men increase estrogen? The magic estrogen tree?

This from the mayo:-

Feminizing hormone therapy involves taking medicine to block the action of the hormone testosterone. It also includes taking the hormone estrogen. Estrogen lowers the amount of testosterone the body makes. It also triggers the development of feminine secondary sex characteristics. Feminizing hormone therapy can be done alone or along with feminizing surgery.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I don't feel the need to fill my posts with personal anecdotes about why women need single sex spaces and services. We all know why they need them. I think there is plenty of information out there for people to read for themselves on the wider issues and I am happy to direct them to it so they can decide.

Anything personal I put on here you would just dismiss anyway, seeing as you've spent much of this thread calling me a liar, just as you dismiss other women who speak publicly about women's specific needs.

If you aren't convinced by science, sports research, medical experts, crime stats, and women's own experiences, then nothing will convince you. Oh, except the 51% bog survey. You found that to be overwhelmingly compelling evidence. Case closed really after that, no further proof required.

Here's sports scientist Dr Ross Tucker on cycling's regs and transwoman advantage for those interested:

https://radiotour.us/f/breaking-down-the-uci-transgender-regulations

 

[multitool]

You don't put personal anecdotes about negative experiences with TW in women's spaces because you haven't fücking got any.

Ditto any experience of actually talking to Tw.

Which is why you just roll out your dogma again.

Who do you think you are kidding?

 

[AuroraSaab]

The anti-trans thing is a cult. If you look at JK she isn't saying the same things she was when she first got sucked in. Nor is Sharron Davies. They've expanded beyond their initial remit towards a general intolerance of trans women. In this thread Aurora started off just claiming to be concerned about women's spaces, but unwittingly the more you press her, especially if she gets angry, the more the actual spite towards trans women comes out.

There is only one side on here that posts personal abuse and vitriol.

It's not hatred of transwomen. It's a recognition that women need single sex spaces and services - and that requires excluding men in certain circumstances. All men regardless of how they identify, look, or feel.

It's you that is arguing that there is a special class of men who should be treated differently from other men. Without evidence to show why and without caring about the impact on women. Changing rooms, rape centres, jails, sports, med for kids - you'll defend it all and be gleeful over women being assaulted or prevented from meeting together because nothing is allowed to trump the feelings of a man who thinks he is a woman.

 

[multitool]

because nothing is allowed to trump the feelings of a man who thinks he is a woman.

...and there it is. The spite. And the weird catechism.

 

[classic33]

So how do men increase estrogen? The magic estrogen tree?

This from the mayo:-

Suggest you read the link I posted.

 

[icowden]

Suggest you read the link I posted.

I did it's hilarious. An article about a condition which doesn't exist.

Note the language "he believes", and

IMS is supposedly the result of dipping and oscillating hormones, specifically testosterone. However, there’s no medical evidence of IMS.

and

The symptoms of so-called IMS mimic some of the symptoms women experience during PMS. However, IMS doesn’t follow any physiological pattern the way a woman’s period follows her reproductive cycle, as no hormonal basis of IMS exists. That means these symptoms may not occur regularly, and there may be no pattern to them.

Although it missed out "and they may be made up". If a man wants to look more womanly he has to take estrogen. If a woman wants to look more manly she has to take testosterone.

 

[theclaud]

the people on the side of women

Woman here. A little way upthread you described me as 'there to be impregnated'. Can we stop dressing up reheated biological essentialism and evolutionary neurobollocks as feminism? All that logic you supposedly value and you end up with a position largely indistinguishable from Unkraut's...

 

[newfhouse]

Impregnable.

 

[monkers]

So how do men increase estrogen? The magic estrogen tree?

This from the mayo:-

That stuff from the Mayo applies to the states, but it's not how it's done over here. Different countries have differing regimes. Some places use combinations of blockers, oestrogen and progesterone in their regimes.

The UK system relies on heavy doses of oestrogen, typically 6mg per day orally or otherwise, and more often trans-dermal patches. This causes dramatic effects in terms of genital and gonadal atrophy. I spoke about this before, but I left out an important aspect (I thought I'd said enough).,

Apart from the atrophy of the testes, penis and prostate, there is also drastic atrophy of the scrotum. The scrotum is perhaps the least commonly understood part of the male anatomy. I've previously scolded you for mainsplaining, so I really shouldn't do this and I'm sure posters here will know this, but just in case, the scrotum is the muscle that makes male orgasm possible. The effects of oestrogen on the male body are such that the penis atrophies, the testes atrophy and dry up, the prostate gland shrinks, the scrotum atrophies, and libido is lost. This is what used to be referred to as chemical castration.

So let's please clear this up once and for all, while a trans woman undergoing hormone replacement therapy they may have 'male genitals', however the possibility of erection, orgasm and ejaculation are not realistically feasible. Despite the wild claims made by others, it is simply not possible for the cohort of trans women undergoing hormone therapy to have male patterns of rape, which is why you don't hear about it.

The author of the Swedish study points to the limitations of the study and warns against the data being used in this way.

More about Sweden, more particularly the language. Under Swedish Law, the definition of 'rape' is different from English - it is a term they apply to all forms of sexual assault. Therefore if a Swedish study lists data for any cohort for 'rape' then the numbers will probably be inclusive for all forms of sexual assault. You'll understand I'm sure how this is not a difference without distinction and will tend to skew the evidence. Hence the author of the Swedish study trying to clarify that her study should not be used to say that statistically trans women commit rape as much as the men. She has clarified to say this is not the case. You will understand that this is not a fit with the allegations made by some.