Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

The definition of 'rape' in Swedish law is not really any different than in most European countries. It includes very serious sexual assaults that would be regarded as 'a comparable sexual act' to rape - eg forced oral sex. When they say 'rape' in Swedish academic and official papers they are not talking about minor offences.

https://eige.europa.eu/gender-based...ework/legal-definitions-in-the-eu/sweden-rape

As your link states, that was updated in 2019. It's obvious to all, that was not the case at the time that the Swedish Study was produced and published.

As an aside, this was one of the legal problems facing Julian Assange. He had been investigated for having committed rape while in Sweden. This led to many believing that Assange was a rapist. I forget the technicalities to be honest, but for anyone interested I'm sure a report can be found, probably via Craig Murray.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I deleted my post whilst you were writing that because, well it's just ridiculous to be discussing that 'rape' is not as big a deal as we might think because it's 'only' sexual assault not penetrative rape. Just like it's ridiculous to be pedantically discussing what they call the irreversible drugs you give kids for mental distress that will pass in most of them.

Here we are though, discussing utterly batsh*t concepts like males in women's prisons and making kids into lifelong patients as though both of them are perfectly normal things to be happening. Even I forget how ridiculous and surreal gender ideology is sometimes.

 

[monkers]

I deleted my post whilst you were writing that because, well it's just ridiculous to be discussing that 'rape' is not as big a deal as we might think because it's 'only' sexual assault not penetrative rape. Just like it's ridiculous to be pedantically discussing what they call the irreversible drugs you give kids for mental distress that will pass in most of them.

Here we are though, discussing utterly batsh*t concepts like males in women's prisons and making kids into lifelong patients as though both of them are perfectly normal things to be happening. Even I forget how ridiculous and surreal gender ideology is sometimes.

Talking of batshit crazy - has anybody argued that there have been no problems with Mermaids and Tavistock? What is argued that the best outcome is a withdrawal of health provision for trans youth. It isn't difficult to foresee that the prospect of an increased number of cases of self-harm or suicide attempts is real.

Personally I have some doubt about the motives of Sue Evans. She talks about the early days when she practised 'talking therapies' as a psycho-analyst. 'Talking therapies' is recognised by some as the practice of conversion therapy. Reading the various reports, I think I see evidence of empire building by some, just had been the case at the GIC in Fulham Palace Road. Clearly the system is short of resources, and I will agree with you that since we are talking about the healthcare of children, much more needs to be done.

As for prisons your figures or the numbers, along with the prevalence of harm have been shot down. There are currently 6 trans prisoners within the prison estate according to the latest available data. These include trans men and at least one trans woman. They have been risk assessed. The nature of the offences committed are unknown to the public. There are no known complaints against any of those six.

It is the alarmist nature of your diatribe that is being challenged, along with your abusive narrative on available data.

@icowden posted the cases he could find world wide. He came up with four cases. Of those four one offender committed an offence in a male toilet. Two of the four did not pertain to the UK. Making changes to UK law will not prevent events in other countries. Justification to changing UK law would need to reflect what is happening in the UK.

The case in Scotland was certainly troubling. Although I am not equipped with all the facts, my thoughts nonetheless is that the judicial system was negligent in not handing down a prison sentence on the occasion of the first conviction. Further to that, the pattern of behaviour suggests to me that this person might will have had an underlying mental illness.

 

[multitool]

Aurora unwittingly hit upon the truth (rare for her, I know) when she said:

"Here we are though, discussing utterly batsh*t concepts like males in women's prisons and making kids into lifelong patients as though both of them are perfectly normal things to be happening"

That is the point. They aren't normal. They are vanishingly rare, which is, of course, the nature of minorities. And the whole point about the treatment of trans youth is that there is no perfect outcome. Aurora doesnt seem to understand this. She has an idealised view, which is further evidence of her complete lack of experience.

She has been totally evasive when asked to lay out her experiences of trans people, but instead wraps herself up in her comfort blanket of tired old mantras.

 

[Milzy]

That's weird, Milzy.

I didn't have you down as the sort of person who would drink the Kool Aid

I’m not. It’s designed to divide us.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I know/have known some trans people. I knew one very well indeed. They are all lovely people. I still don't think women should be expected to share their single sex spaces and services with males, transitioned or not. Not because they are trans but because they are male. Just as I don't think trans people should have to share their specific services with non trans people.

How strange it is that so many things have to change - language, jails, sport, single sex spaces - for a 'vanishingly small' number of people. It's only women that have to make the accommodations though, so apparently it doesn't matter.

 

[multitool]

I know/have known some trans people. I knew one very well indeed.

 

[Milzy]

Real women in bikini adds = Opressive.
Fruity men wear bikinis in drag shows for children = empowering.
Wow!

 

[monkers]

I know/have known some trans people. I knew one very well indeed. They are all lovely people. I still don't think women should be expected to share their single sex spaces and services with males, transitioned or not. Not because they are trans but because they are male. Just as I don't think trans people should have to share their specific services with non trans people.

How strange it is that so many things have to change - language, jails, sport, single sex spaces - for a 'vanishingly small' number of people. It's only women that have to make the accommodations though, so apparently it doesn't matter.

Human rights are universal no matter how small the numbers. Ensuring human rights is a responsibility shared by all of us for all people.

It's extraordinary how far people will go in order to justify their law breaking.

 

[AuroraSaab]

And the whole point about the treatment of trans youth is that there is no perfect outcome. Aurora doesnt seem to understand this. She has an idealised view, which is further evidence of her complete lack of experience.

Surely the best outcome for a body dysphoric child is that this dysphoria resolves? Which it does in most children after adolescence if they don't go on to puberty blockers. If they go on puberty blockers they are very highly likely to go on to cross sex hormones.

If the preferred outcome is for a child to be happy in their body, isn't it a better outcome that this dysphoria resolves naturally without using life changing drugs? The affirmation model ends up with the kids in whom dysphoria would resolve naturally being on the same potentially lifelong medical pathway as the smaller number of kids in whom dysphoria would persist into adulthood - and for whom cross sex hormones and even surgery might well be the only thing that resolves their mental distress.

This is exactly why the UK, France, Sweden, and even the Dutch who started the first child gender clinic, are now very cautious about medicalising minors - because it was treating all children the same for a condition that would pass in many of them.

 

[AuroraSaab]

* utterly predictable 'I don't believe you' response*

As I said earlier. You don't believe experts in biological science, sports science, gender medicine experts, or other women's experiences, so no surprise whatsoever at this post.

 

[monkers]

Surely the best outcome for a body dysphoric child is that this dysphoria resolves? Which it does in most children after adolescence if they don't go on to puberty blockers. If they go on puberty blockers they are very highly likely to go on to cross sex hormones.

If the preferred outcome is for a child to be happy in their body, isn't it a better outcome that this dysphoria resolves naturally without using life changing drugs? The affirmation model ends up with the kids in whom dysphoria would resolve naturally being on the same potentially lifelong medical pathway as the smaller number of kids in whom dysphoria would persist into adulthood - and for whom cross sex hormones and even surgery might well be the only thing that resolves their mental distress.

This is exactly why the UK, France, Sweden, and even the Dutch who started the first child gender clinic, are now very cautious about medicalising minors - because it was treating all children the same for a condition that would pass in many of them.

Aurora you use the word 'many' so frequently. It is not a term that is useful for analysis. Instead please do give the numbers and link to source.

... that would pass in many of them.

How many out of how many?

 

[AuroraSaab]

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.632784/full (Study of Boys with Gender Identity Disorder, 2021).

"Of the 139 participants, 17 (12.2%) were classified as persisters and the remaining 122 (87.8%) were classified as desisters".

This study references other studies specifically on boys. The number who persisted with a transgender identity was as follows:

'Small sample studies' overall rate was 9.4% persisted.
Green study: 2% persisted.
Wallian/Cohen-Kettenis study: 20.3% persisted.
Steensma study: 29.1% persisted.

Across all the named studies it was 17.4% of boys/men who persisted. So that's over 80% who did not persist as transwomen on follow up.

The criticism that transactivists make of all these studies is that the children who desisted as young adults were not really trans at all. The point is though they were 'trans enough' to get a diagnosis at a clinic from specialist doctors and presumably access to puberty blockers and possibly cross sex hormones. If doctors can't judge who is genuinely transgender with any kind of accuracy, is it wise to be putting kids and young people on life changing puberty blockers, and then hormones? Surely better to wait until they are adults?

I'll have a look for other studies that also cover girls tomorrow. Will probably be fewer available.

 

[classic33]

I'd not class myself as "trans activist". More one for letting people get on with their own lives. So long as they don't start "preaching" to me how their beliefs are the only ones that matter. That I should accept what they say as the only way things can be. They leave me alone, I'll leave them alone.
This can be religious, sporting, dieting, whether we are alone in the universe, or anything else in which they believe they are right and everyone else needs to wake up and smell what's being shovelled. I've shovelled enough over the years, and you can soon get to tell what rear it came from. Blunt fact, not a euphemism for anything else.

I've been on the receiving end over the years, either for sticking up for what someone should be allowed to do(when it affects no-one else) or directly as a result of various medical issues, some mentioned on this thread. The level of abuse can be a bit off putting at times, I just want to live my life as best as I'm able, and I'll help those wishing to do similar. If this means shouting down others that feel they have the right to tell me how I should be living my life, so it suits them, I'll do so. If I "upset" the person telling me by trying to live my life, tough.

I doubt I'm the only one who wants to get on with their life, harming no-one else. Maybe those saying someone's life choice is wrong really need to take a long inward look at themselves. They might just see where the real problem is. Sort that problem out, then start telling others their way of life is wrong. They'll have a lot less to "tell" other people how to live their lives.

Discrimination I've lived with all my life. I've sought equal rights, not special rights, and despite the law saying I now can't be discriminated against, it doesn't stop it happening. At times almost daily. Be it the gobby woman who seeks to deny me medical treatment, or the other passengers on public transport who don't like what they see. It's not "normal", like us, get it out of our sight/away from us, ending up being asked to get off. The not so quiet whispers, loud enough for them to know you'll hear them talking about you.

I can't even begin to imagine what it's like for someone who's decided to make a complete change to their life. Maybe that's why so many feel they're not fit to be part of society. They don't fit in with "normal" any more.
They'll end up either shouting down others who tell them that they are wrong, or take another much harder way out.

Throughout this thread, it's been people that have been talked about. Let's not forget that.

 

[multitool]

As I said earlier. You don't believe experts in biological science, sports science, gender medicine experts, or other women's experiences, so no surprise whatsoever at this post.

To the bolded: no, I do believe them. I'm surrounded by women and we talk. The ones I don't believe are the bigoted zealots who have seized upon a conspiracy theory but CANNOT relate it to their own lives.

As to the rest of your post, it is, of course, a lie.