Gender again. Sorry!

[multitool]

Adele

See, there you go again, doing an Aurora and misconstruing and misrepresenting other people's words.

Adele, you say. What, this Adele?

 

[icowden]

A small digression about 'level playing fields'. We went to a talk by Michael Hutchinson the other day (intelligently entertaining, if you get a chance). He made the point that his inate genetic advantages (an extra litre or so of blood and huge lung capacity) gave him the physical ability to perform as a top-level professional cyclist. Should he have been banned from men's sport or put into a separate category?

Why does he think he has more blood and a larger lung capacity than other men? None of that statement makes sense.

 

[icowden]

See, there you go again, doing an Aurora and misconstruing and misrepresenting other people's words.

No sure how you can misconstrue

Adele further said, “I understand why the name of this award has changed but I really love being a woman and being a female artist. I do! I’m really proud of us, I really, really am.” Her comments quickly made it to social media and netizens were divided over the intentions of her statement.​

It wasn't me that started the campaign to call her a TERF based on this statement.

But Adele, who courted controversy among her fanbase by sensationally cancelling her Vegas residency last month, has now found herself at the centre of a storm between transgender rights activists and feminists over her remarks.

Some have vowed to boycott her music, claiming that she offended non-binary people and branded her a Terf — a derogatory term for a feminist who excludes the rights of transgender women also used against the singer’s friend JK Rowling.

However, women’s rights groups praised her stance, with the charity Safeguard Women & Girls saying: ‘Yes, women are part of society, 50% actually. @Adele you make every woman I know proud. You’re an inspiration to many of what can be achieved’.

And British transgender high school teacher Debbie Hayton said: ‘Adele’s message to women and girls was inspirational. Here was a woman — who has sold tens of millions of albums — telling the world she was proud to be a woman. That’s something to celebrate, not condemn’.

She told the Spectator that in speaking out, Adele risked being put in a group of ‘talented women’ like Harry Potter author Rowling who ‘have been pursued and persecuted mercilessly, simply for standing up for their sex’.

I am aware that she quickly backtracked in order to avoid being cancelled and her label dropping her. because she is a trans ally and says transwomen are woman and actually has no problem with there not being a female artist award even though she said so cos that would be really like hurtful to some people so I'm gonna like do G.A.Y and dance with some drag queens and that should get the heat off...

 

[theclaud]

I do know some people like to compete in non-competitions. Some even claim to have 'won' an Audax event (they know who they are).

Isn't the usual formulation that Audaxes are for people who want to pretend they're not racing, and Sportives are for people who want to pretend that they are?

 

[theclaud]

Wasn't Adele's thing simply a response to making a music award gender neutral (with the predictable outcome that most of the awards would then be given to men)?

 

[icowden]

Wasn't Adele's thing simply a response to making a music award gender neutral (with the predictable outcome that most of the awards would then be given to men)?

Yes, obviously. That didn't stop a barrage of posts accusing her of TERFdom though. Remember if you commit wrongspeak intentionally or otherwise you must be condemned unless you perform the necessary penitence.

And although most of the awards might go to men, the important thing is that they go to people regardless of gender because we live in an entirely equal society, so women and men no longer need their own categories.

 

[theclaud]

Yes, obviously. That didn't stop a barrage of posts accusing her of TERFdom though. Remember if you commit wrongspeak intentionally or otherwise you must be condemned unless you perform the necessary penitence.

Tweeps in Hypersensitivity Shock! Without even looking it up I'll guarantee that the other half of the responses was stuff like "OMG thank you for saying this #AdultHumanFemale #TransWomenAreMen" etc etc. That's the Culture Wars for you...

 

[matticus]

Why does he think he has more blood and a larger lung capacity than other men? None of that statement makes sense.

You can measure lung capacity with simple equipment (we did it at school, and mine was toward the upper end! Shame the rest of my physiology didn't keep up ... ).
No idea about blood, sorry!

 

[Ian H]

Why does he think he has more blood and a larger lung capacity than other men? None of that statement makes sense.

Because it was measured. Part, I believe, of research into athletic performance.

 

[multitool]

Yes, obviously. That didn't stop a barrage of posts accusing her of TERFdom though. Remember if you commit wrongspeak intentionally or otherwise you must be condemned unless you perform the necessary penitence.

And although most of the awards might go to men, the important thing is that they go to people regardless of gender because we live in an entirely equal society, so women and men no longer need their own categories.

No, it sparked a barrage of 'Gender critical' idiots thinking she was one of them.

Why do you think you named her in your list?

 

[AuroraSaab]

Every time you post you drive a wedge between people whose interests have hitherto been compatible or at least mutually intelligible.

Transactivism is a men's rights movement. Some of it's demands - men in women's prisons and sports for example - are not compatible with women's interests. It requires an extraordinary imagination to think they are.

Gotta LOL at this. Ohio Republicans only removed the bit about 'external and internal examinations' when it became clear to them that they'd said the quiet bit out loud. You're giving a whole new lease of life to the term Useful Idiot.

Could you post the link where I said I sanctioned genital inspections on school kids though? You said you could post it. It's quite an allegation to make without evidence and very different from suggesting they provide a GP's note.

Do you think anyone should be able to self-identify into the Paraolympics? Or should there be medical proof if the disability isn't obvious or might be different than claimed?

We went to a talk by Michael Hutchinson the other day (intelligently entertaining, if you get a chance). He made the point that his inate genetic advantages (an extra litre or so of blood and huge lung capacity) gave him the physical ability to perform as a top-level professional cyclist. Should he have been banned from men's sport or put into a separate category?

All those genetic advantages fall within male elite cyclist parameters though. A female cyclist with similar genetic advantages would not be as fast because she's not male.

This is essentially the Phelps gambit.


View: https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1448173975977201667


All of Phelps genetic advantages over other male swimmers add up to a faster time by a fraction of a second. Against elite female swimmers, they add up to half a lap.

 

[AndyRM]

Transactivism is a men's rights movement. Some of it's demands - men in women's prisons and sports for example - are not compatible with women's interests. It requires an extraordinary imagination to think they are.


Could you post the link where I said I sanctioned genital inspections on school kids though? You said you could post it. It's quite an allegation to make without evidence and very different from suggesting they provide a GP's note.

Do you think anyone should be able to self-identify into the Paraolympics? Or should there be medical proof if the disability isn't obvious or might be different than claimed?



All those genetic advantages fall within male elite cyclist parameters though. A female cyclist with similar genetic advantages would not be as fast because she's not male.

This is essentially the Phelps gambit.


View: https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1448173975977201667


All of Phelps genetic advantages over other male swimmers add up to a faster time by a fraction of a second. Against elite female swimmers, they add up to half a lap.

Since when was transactivism a men's right movement?

Because it isn't.

 

[Rusty Nails]

A small digression about 'level playing fields'. We went to a talk by Michael Hutchinson the other day (intelligently entertaining, if you get a chance). He made the point that his inate genetic advantages (an extra litre or so of blood and huge lung capacity) gave him the physical ability to perform as a top-level professional cyclist. Should he have been banned from men's sport or put into a separate category?

Sport, especially at top level, has never been a completely level playing field (no pun intended). The top competitors are always outliers, usually (but not always) in terms of their physical advantages. It is not a lottery that anyone can win, as already recognised in sports such as boxing, weightlifting etc. which are categorised based on physical differences.

Taking your rather disingenuous non-question to its (il)logical conclusion, should sport do away completely with male/female differentiation in the cause of equality of access and fairness for all?

Personally, I believe that the discussion over access to sport and, to some extent, public toilets, takes away from the more important point about making sure that society treats people with issues about their gender, and not just those going down the more extreme routes of drug and surgical interventions fairly and not as if they are just weird or a threat to others.

 

[multitool]

Apart from your excellent last point, sport is indeed rarely a level playing field for reasons other than physical aspects as well, even at amateur level. Some people have more money, and therefore more time. Often these are the deciding factors.

 

[AuroraSaab]

If that were the case, well funded and supported female elite athletes in the West would record better times than male elite athletes from poor countries. They don't very often.

Similarly, if time and money were a bigger factor than sex you would also expect professional full time elite female athletes to beat US schoolboys. They don't. Because sex is a bigger determinant of athletic success than anything else (in most sports anyway).