Gender again. Sorry!

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monkers

Legendary Member
On prison assaults stats 7 transwomen isn't enough to make a meaningful conclusion but a tiny number of women on a forum is ....

You do keep on raising prisons. Your false narrative has been endlessly debunked concerning sexual attacks on female prisoners by transgender prisoners.

Between 2016 and 2019 there were 97 alleged sexual assaults on female prisoners by other prisoners in the female prison estate.

Of those 97 alleged assaults, 90 were carried out by cis women, the other 7 were assaults with the involvement of trans prisoners.

Of the seven cases, at least one was a trans man, the actual number I am unable to find. Of the remaining six, in at least two of the alleged cases, again actual number I am unable to find, the transgender prisoners involved were alleged to have assisted a cis woman in the attack of another cis woman. The level of involvement of the assistants again is detail I am unable to find.

Let us also remember that the number of allegations and the number of proven cases are not necessarily the same thing.

The one case where we do have some detail is in the case of Karen White in 2017, where there was a failure in risk assessment. An apology from the prison service to do so followed.

In the last four years, 2019 to 2023, there have been no cases of allegations transgender involvement in sexual assault by transgender prisoners on women in the female prison estate. Not only is the number zero, but we also know that this is against a background of an increase in the number of sexual assaults on female prisoners by other prisoners in the female prison estate.

It is clear then, that the increasing risk of harm to female prisoners is not from trans prisoners, it is from cis women.

No doubt you will counter this in your new-found style of refusing to believe what I say. Whatever, here is Baroness Brinton speaking on this in the House of Lords ...

Baroness Brinton
(LD) [V]

My Lords, the problem that Amendment 214 is trying to resolve is already addressed in the very strict codes of practice and guidance to the prison sector. Given that there is a full system of assessment of transgender prisoners, the prison environment in which they are currently placed and that in which they would like to be placed, it is worth running through the detail.

The noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, quoted from last year’s judicial review, but paragraph 75, where the explanation for the ruling starts, states:

“It is clear that the number of transgender women in women’s prisons is small, and the number who hold GRCs (and are therefore entitled to be treated as women in accordance with the Gender Recognition Act 2004) is very small.”


I say that in the light of the tone of the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, which made it appear that there was a large invasion of trans women in women’s prisons.

The number of transgender prisoners is very small. However, the guidance on the management of prisoners is lengthy and clear, because transgender prisoners have human rights, as all prisoners do, and because they themselves are at serious risk in prison. The most recent statistics are from last year, and in its coverage of the data, the BBC noted:

“The total number of transgender victims far exceeds the number who were suspected of carrying out sex attacks, with only one such case in 2019.”


Between 2016 and 2019, of 97 sexual attacks in the women’s prison estate, seven trans women had been involved in sex assaults, either as the alleged perpetrator or assistant, with 90 of the sexual assaults being carried out by cis women. A further set of figures from the Ministry of Justice states that 11 trans women had been sexually assaulted in the men’s prison estate in 2019 alone. All this tells us that trans women are far more likely to be victims of assault in prisons than perpetrators and that many more women are assaulted by cis women in prison than by trans women.

However, even if the number of trans prisoners assaulting others is very low, it is right that there are safeguards in place, so what does the guidance say? It says that after a prisoner declares and can provide evidence that they are living in the gender that the offender identifies with, there will be an initial local transgender case board which will, as appropriate, make arrangements for transfers to other parts of the prison estate.

The Parole Board published Guidance on Prisoners who are Transgender in March of this year, which sets out the law very clearly for the prison and probation services regarding prisoners who are transgender. The operational guidance states that

“all transgender individuals, irrespective of whether they are located in the estate which matches the gender with which they identify, must be allowed to express the gender with which they identify. However, decisions to locate individuals who are transgender in prisons that do not match their legal gender can be made only on the recommendation of a Complex Case Board. This board will take into account risk factors to the individual and risk to others”.

To make it clear, for any trans prisoners who might also be deemed a risk to other prisoners, a complex case board has to be called for transgender offenders, which will look at the complexity and specifically assess the risk of harm, prior to making decisions about prison location. The views of the offender must be presented to the board, but a number of healthcare and psychology leads would be there to ensure that any move to a women’s prison would be safe.

Options that a complex case board can consider include moving a prisoner to a women’s prison but keeping them in segregation or, if even that is felt to be too risky, moving them into a segregated part of a men’s prison that is staffed as if it were a women’s unit. There are also now a small number of transgender prison units. It seems that this document sets out well all the steps that need to be taken to protect the trans prisoner—who, as I have already said, is at much higher risk of assault than non-trans prisoners—while also protecting the other prisoners from someone who might be deemed a risk.

There was the case of Karen White, who sexually assaulted two women while on remand at New Hall prison in Wakefield in 2017. It is worth remembering that the Prison Service had to apologise in that case because it had not followed the procedures outlined above, failing all prisoners at New Hall. White should never have been put in a women’s prison and, had there been a complex case board, it would have assessed her as being a risk and not put her in a women’s prison.

The current Ministry of Justice and HMPPS 39-page policy on “The Care and Management of Individuals who are Transgender” says at paragraph 1.6:

“The proper assessment of risk is paramount in the management of all individuals in our care. The management of individuals who are transgender, particularly in custodial and residential settings, must seek to protect both the welfare and rights of the individual and the welfare and rights of others around them, including staff. Decisions must be informed by all available evidence and intelligence in order to achieve an outcome that balances risks and promotes the safety of all in our care and management.”


The process is there to protect all prisoners and to respect the rights and safety of all prisoners. This amendment is redundant. The actual facts of what is happening with trans women in prisons does not match the opening speech by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra.
 
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They're not ending their use then. Contrary to what you first posted.

They are ending them as a routine treatment. I can't see many researchers rushing forward to start research programmes as they require quite a bit more diligence than just freely prescribing meds.

The enthusiasm of folks on this thread for the medicating of 11 year olds never ceases to surprise me.
 
You do keep on raising prisons. Your false narrative has been endlessly debunked concerning sexual attacks on female prisoners by transgender prisoners.
Between 2016 and 2019 there were 97 alleged sexual assaults on female prisoners by other prisoners in the female prison estate.
Of those 97 alleged assaults, 90 were carried out by cis women, the other 7 were assaults with the involvement of trans prisoners.
It's the ratio not the numbers per se. Of course most attacks will be by women, simply because of the numbers in each cohort. For their small number, transwomen comit assaults at a proportionately higher rate. And when the number in women's prisons reduces so does the number of assaults.

As for the massive cut and paste .... women's prisons aren't refuges for vulnerable males, however they identify. The fact that transwomen are more likely to be assaulted than comit an assault isn't a problem for female prisoners to solve.
 
They are ending them as a routine treatment. I can't see many researchers rushing forward to start research programmes as they require quite a bit more diligence than just freely prescribing meds.

The enthusiasm of folks on this thread for the medicating of 11 year olds never ceases to surprise me.
There's plenty of kids, under the age of 11, on routine(for them) medications.
You insisting that they only prescribe a type you don't agree with, does nothing to help.

I can speak with some authority on this matter as I was taking various medications routinely, long before I got to 11 years old.
 
It's the ratio not the numbers per se. Of course most attacks will be by women, simply because of the numbers in each cohort. For their small number, transwomen comit assaults at a proportionately higher rate. And when the number in women's prisons reduces so does the number of assaults.

As for the massive cut and paste .... women's prisons aren't refuges for vulnerable males, however they identify. The fact that transwomen are more likely to be assaulted than comit an assault isn't a problem for female prisoners to solve.
As you've stated before, they should be in seperate, purpose built facilities. Thereby reducing the amount available to the rest of the prison* population.

*Seperate facilities within the same prison. Such as at Limerick Prison, now housing two other women along with Barbie Kardashian.
 
There's plenty of kids, under the age of 11, on routine(for them) medications.
You insisting that they only prescribe a type you don't agree with, does nothing to help.

I can speak with some authority on this matter as I was taking various medications routinely, long before I got to 11 years old.

Puberty isn't a health issue. It's not a disease. It isn't going to kill you. It doesn't require medicalisation, which brings other long term side effects. If your health issues at age 11 could have been resolved by a therapy and 'watchful waiting' approach, would that not have been a preferred option?

As you've stated before, they should be in seperate, purpose built facilities. Thereby reducing the amount available to the rest of the prison* population.
If there are vulnerable transwomen prisoners, of course they should be in a special wing so their needs can be accomodated. The same applies to all prisoners with special needs. Just accommodate them with other vulnerable males, not with actual women. Nobody's suggesting they have to live on an island.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
The enthusiasm of folks on this thread for the medicating of 11 year olds never ceases to surprise me.

I haven't noticed this enthusiasm of which you speak.

What I have seen is a number of people taking you to account for you deceitful ways.

Your conflation of ideas is testament to your dishonesty. Witness the flip-flopping from different countries and different states of America, as if the UK is under the same political regime as them. It isn't.
It's the ratio not the numbers per se. Of course most attacks will be by women, simply because of the numbers in each cohort. For their small number, transwomen comit assaults at a proportionately higher rate. And when the number in women's prisons reduces so does the number of assaults.

As for the massive cut and paste .... women's prisons aren't refuges for vulnerable males, however they identify. The fact that transwomen are more likely to be assaulted than comit an assault isn't a problem for female prisoners to solve.

Try acknowledging that 'massive cut and paste' from Baroness Brinton. I agree with her, and not with you, because she is on top of her brief, her argument is cogent.

You ongoing assertion has been that trans women have proved to be a danger for cis women prisoners. So I find myself having to say it again ... this is wrong.

It is also wrong when you say that it must flow that posters, make that people for that's who we are, on this thread are promoting the idea that any prisoner who is AMAB and self-identifies as a woman goes to the female prison estate by that default. It just isn't true.

I feel sure that I am not alone growing increasingly weary in having to tell you, clearly a zealot, to end this nonsensical approach to argument.

Baroness Brinton also makes it clear, that the prison service has been successful in managing trans prisoners since 2019 with its reliance on the rigour of risk-based assessment.

Another point that you've been in denial about was also stated clearly by Brinton. That is that case of Karen White which was a failure of the prison service. You challenged me when I had said this and the prison service had needed to apologise for their failure.

Your lies have now been debunked so often, and consumed so much energy in this thread, it really is time for you to stop.

We need to let women speak, but we need those voices to be like Baroness Brinton, well-informed, intelligent, and above all honest.
 
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multitool

Guest
They are ending them as a routine treatment. I can't see many researchers rushing forward to start research programmes as they require quite a bit more diligence than just freely prescribing meds.

The enthusiasm of folks on this thread for the medicating of 11 year olds never ceases to surprise me.

It all depends on what "routine" action meant in practice....rather than what you loons want it to mean.

Also, it's a bit sick to commandeer the personal strife of young people and exploit it in your own personal campaign against trans women, especially when it is framed as concern for them, which it clearly isn't.
 
Puberty isn't a health issue. It's not a disease. It isn't going to kill you. It doesn't require medicalisation, which brings other long term side effects. If your health issues at age 11 could have been resolved by a therapy and 'watchful waiting' approach, would that not have been a preferred option?

If there are vulnerable transwomen prisoners, of course they should be in a special wing so their needs can be accomodated. The same applies to all prisoners with special needs. Just accommodate them with other vulnerable males, not with actual women. Nobody's suggesting they have to live on an island.
There's experts would disagree with you on that. Hormone changes, physical changes to the body aren't health issues? Then there's the mental health issues that go along with it.

Why would you want to house vulnerable women with men? Given your stance of women need/require their own spaces.
Define "special needs" as you understand it in the piece you posted. Just to avoid any misunderstanding on what you actually mean.
 
Your lies have now been debunked so often, and consumed so much energy in this thread, it really is time for you to stop.
As long as you keep championing the entitlement of men over women's rights that's simply not going to happen. Whether it's sports, prisons, or changing rooms, ultimately your argument always boils down to one thing - 'These men are special... we shouldn't treat them like other men'..... with no evidence whatsoever other than emotional special pleading.

Also, it's a bit sick to commandeer the personal strife of young people and exploit it in your own personal campaign against trans women, especially when it is framed as concern for them, which it clearly isn't.
If you cared you'd be glad that the service was moving towards a holistic approach with multi-disciplinary teams rather than a protocol that was primarily a medical pathway. The fact that you insist the Tavistock was so successful they're opening two more just the same shows you haven't even looked at the gender clinic issue seriously.
 

multitool

Guest
As long as you keep championing the entitlement of men over women's rights that's simply not going to happen. Whether it's sports, prisons, or changing rooms, ultimately your argument always boils down to one thing - 'These men are special... we shouldn't treat them like other men'..... with no evidence whatsoever other than emotional special pleading.


If you cared you'd be glad that the service was moving towards a holistic approach with multi-disciplinary teams rather than a protocol that was primarily a medical pathway. The fact that you insist the Tavistock was so successful they're opening two more just the same shows you haven't even looked at the gender clinic issue seriously.

You are the Tommy Robinson of gender politics.

Exploiting others for your own ends. Nowhere else do we see you showing any interest in children's health.
 
What other thread has there been on children's health? I haven't seen you showing much interest in prisoners welfare until it came to cheering on putting blokes in women's jails.

Mainly though you come on this thread to shout Nazi and fascist at people who oppose gender ideology. And like your masked up friends in black, with their flares and 'Kill terfs' placards, you simply want to stop women meeting and talking about stuff. Same old same old.

Yawn stop lying. I don't. I champion human rights and the truth.
The truth is men are always men, and women are always women. Sometimes that needs to be taken into account. This whole thread comes down to that.
 

multitool

Guest
The truth is men are always men, and women are always women. Sometimes that needs to be taken into account. This whole thread comes down to that.

Look forward to you taking into account the entire experience of 40+ countries with self-ID, who aren't (like the UK and US) being captured by a fascist cult.
 
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