Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

You are incorrect. There's no longer is a 'women's class; it's gone'.

No, it's just been made clear that it's for biological women.

Your friend apparently rode in that class before, despite not identifying as a woman, without feeling the need to withdraw because their gender identity wasn't specifically catered for. Now their gender identity is catered for IF THEY WISH and you're still not happy.

You always say that gender is not assigned at birth, not gender. Why do you agree with this now? Does ignoring convention in pronouns give a person an unfair biological advantage in sport?

Nothing is assigned at birth. Sex is observed at birth (correctly in 99.8% of cases). I don't agree with a separate non binary class. I agree with a protected class for women. Nb's going in the Open class if they wish seems fair.

It was not problematic before. This is a consequence of the argument of the anti-trans brigade.

It was very problematic before, just not for you. It was certainly problematic for female pro cyclists and other sportswomen who when eventually asked have shown overwhelmingly that they want a category for women only. It's a consequence of a large number of male born cyclists taking places and awards from women.

 

[monkers]

No, it's just been made clear that it's for biological women.

Your friend apparently rode in that class before, despite not identifying as a woman, without feeling the need to withdraw because their gender identity wasn't specifically catered for. Now their gender identity is catered for IF THEY WISH and you're still not happy.

No the class is for 'females'. My friend is a biological female with no biological advantage over other females. It is not relevant that I am not happy; it is relevant that my friend is furious.

 

[monkers]

Nothing is assigned at birth. Sex is observed at birth (correctly in 99.8% of cases). I don't agree with a separate non binary class. I agree with a protected class for women. Nb's going in the Open class if they wish seems fair.

I think it is you who has been to keep the sex assigned at birth stance. I usually say that sex is recorded on the birth certificate. However that is a semantic argument of little matter to the case. That said, as I have pointed out, the system actually manages to confuse the sex with gender identity distinction so badly that it often manages to reverse them.

It is not right that some females are being treated unfairly.

All this previous blather from you about ensuring fairness in sport has now vanished faster than Pidcock on a mountain descent.

So what have I learnt from you? That unless a female uses your words, they can forgo their rights. It was never about biological rights, it's all about policing how anybody, male or female, is allowed to express gender identity, and all because you say you haven't got one.

Maybe it's pursuit of purity, maybe it's some kind of snobbery. I suspect elements of each. Poor show for feminisim.

 

[qigong chimp]

Bob didn't know what carceral means!!!

Inspired me to dust off my slow cooker.

 

[classic33]

You are weakening your point. There was no idiocy in @AuroraSaab's posts.

Your friend is then a woman. She might not think of herself as one, but as far as cycling categorisation it doesn't matter if she thinks she is a banana or a walrus. They can race in the female category or if they find that offensive they can join the open category instead.

You just said your friend isn't a woman therefore feminism doesn't apply to them. You can't have woman's rights if you don't think you are a woman. They will need to appeal to the non-binaryism movement if such exists. Although given that there is a category for non-binary people, I don't see the issue?

Small detail - the text quoted on here is not on the website link in the format given. The link plainly states that anyone who is transgender competes in the open category along with anyone who does not want to be categorised as male of female. That seems perfectly fair to me.

So you can have women's rights if you were born male, but as you grew up, your beliefs changed, and you now think/feel you're a woman?

I thought that had been dismissed as impossible by some on here.

 

[Milzy]

So you can have women's rights if you were born male, but as you grew up, your beliefs changed, and you now think/feel you're a woman?

I thought that had been dismissed as impossible by some on here.

You can do as you please now.

 

[Ian H]

It's a consequence of a large number of male born cyclists taking places and awards from women.

Can you put a figure on this 'large number'?

 

[monkers]

Can you put a figure on this 'large number'?

It's whatever Aurora says it is - it's the real numbers that are arbitrary.

 

[mudsticks]

Can you put a figure on this 'large number'?

She could have said 'a number' and that would have been valid .

Interesting that even the teensiest rhetorical flourish from @AuroraSaab gets leapt upon..

Why is that??

Other people can call her an 'idiot' 'bigot' 'allied with Nazis' all manner of names, and slurs .


No one points that out, as being a bit 'over the top' do they?? .

For anyone saying that "The law and regulations says so and so about trans rights, therefore it must be 100% correct immutable, and if you disagree with one scintilla of it, you are therefore a truly a terrible person " etc etc.

Other laws, and regulation have been protested, looked at again, have been adapted, updated, because it turns out they weren't quite right?
Haven't they??
It's a process, not set in stone.

Or should any of us with concerns, just put up, and shut up right?? I mean yeah that's what we've been 'trained' in right??

Pipe down you troublesome women, wanting fairness and equality - pointing out where one person's rights might occasionally impinge upon another's.

Ofc if you're a man, not interested in competitive sport, or indeed a priveleged woman who has not suffered trauma at the hands of male bodied people, this is all just an interesting topic to while away the time, and to display your oh so shiny switched on credentials.

Ask anyone to look at why some women feel threatened by this, in some circumstances, often because of their own lived experience..??

Oh no, not interested in the slightest, they're all just small minded bigots right?? .

 

[icowden]

So you can have women's rights if you were born male, but as you grew up, your beliefs changed, and you now think/feel you're a woman?

I think you have inferred the wrong thing here. Women's rights apply to women. We can debate until the cows come home about the definition of a woman and whether or not a transwoman is a woman. That won't get us anywhere. My point is that feminism is about achieving equality for women - so if you aren't in that category, it doesn't apply to you.

I thought that had been dismissed as impossible by some on here.

That's a different debate.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Can you put a figure on this 'large number'?

How many is too many, Ian? How many dopers in the Tour de France are acceptable? Is one too many?

It's whatever Aurora says it is - it's the real numbers that are arbitrary.

Well it's 2 this week alone.

Austin Killips winning $5,000 in a graval race in Carolina.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fo...s-latest-triumph-north-carolina-what-joke.amp

Cara Dixon is currently first in the Trans Atlantic Way race in Ireland.


View: https://twitter.com/i_heart__bikes/status/1667544935686631424


Already posted this once in this thread but here it is again for the 'But it never happens...' people.


View: https://twitter.com/i_heart__bikes/status/1645203032206987266


A few examples from the list:

Jillian Bearden. Raced with the pro women at the Colorado Classic. Masters national champion. Colorado state Champion.

Austin Killips. Went from never having raced bikes to racing at the elite level in women's road and cyclocross in just a few years. 3rd at the US National Cyclocross Championships in the women's elite.

Molly Cameron. Raced for many years against males at the elite level while IDing as trans. Now that independent, high-profile gravel races allow self-ID, competes in those races against women.

Jenna Lingwood. Women’s masters 40+ national cyclocross champion. 5th place in the 2022 women's elite national cyclocross championships. Lingwood raced for many years with males.

Tara Seplavy. Mediocre racer as a male and slightly less mediocre racer as a female. Cycling journalist for Bicycling magazine.


Sara Stearns. Masters 70+ national and world track champion. Masters world record holder.

Tiffany Thomas. 46 year old domestic pro racer for team LA Sweat

Ruth Seaman. Races road. Set a women's course record at the Pace Bend Ultra 12 Hour race at the age of 55.

Kate Weatherly. Races mountain bike in New Zealand. Races against elite females. National champion.

It wouldn't matter how many there were. Unfair advantage is unfair advantage.

In other news, US powerlifting has filed an appeal against the ruling that they can't exclude transwomen from powerlifting. You know, that sport where you lift massively heavy weights and where a male body is a huge advantage.

https://calfkicker.com/us-powerlift...to-force-them-to-implement-trans-inclusivity/

Still, the complainant JayCee Cooper doesn't win every time they lift. Just quite a lot. Unless they win every comp it's not a problem, right?

 

[Ian H]

She could have said 'a number' and that would have been valid .

Interesting that even the teensiest rhetorical flourish from @AuroraSaab gets leapt upon..

Why is that??

Other people can call her an 'idiot' 'bigot' 'allied with Nazis' all manner of names, and slurs .


No one points that out, as being a bit 'over the top' do they?? .

For anyone saying that "The law and regulations says so and so about trans rights, therefore it must be 100% correct immutable, and if you disagree with one scintilla of it, you are therefore a truly a terrible person " etc etc.

Other laws, and regulation have been protested, looked at again, have been adapted, updated, because it turns out they weren't quite right?
Haven't they??
It's a process, not set in stone.

Or should any of us with concerns, just put up, and shut up right?? I mean yeah that's what we've been 'trained' in right??

Pipe down you troublesome women, wanting fairness and equality - pointing out where one person's rights might occasionally impinge upon another's.

Ofc if you're a man, not interested in competitive sport, or indeed a priveleged woman who has not suffered trauma at the hands of male bodied people, this is all just an interesting topic to while away the time, and to display your oh so shiny switched on credentials.

Ask anyone to look at why some women feel threatened by this, in some circumstances, often because of their own lived experience..??

Oh no, not interested in the slightest, they're all just small minded bigots right?? .

My particular purview is informed by an old friend of mine whom I've known for decades, since well before she transitioned. She's a gentle person with a wide circle of friends, female, male, and other. She's had to change things she does because of abuse and even occasional assault. She offers absolutely no harm to anyone. I think a lot of the abuse is down to the aggressive rhetoric of the kind that Aurora puts forward in her various links. For the record, I can understand her fears but I dislike her mode of putting them forward, because that kind of inflated rhetoric causes harm to a small number of vulnerable people.

 

[icowden]

No the class is for 'females'. My friend is a biological female with no biological advantage over other females. It is not relevant that I am not happy; it is relevant that my friend is furious.

which you know is just nitpicking. The reason it has been relabelled from women to female is precisely because of the need to protect women's sport for biological females.

There is a choice. Either transwomen are not women and race in the trans and binary category or transwomen are women, but cannot race in the biological female category.

The compromise solution is to have a male and female category and an open category for anyone not biologically male or female or who is uncomfortable racing under those designations.

Your friend has a choice, and is not being prevented from participating or competing. If she chooses not to because of idealism, that's down to her. It's insane to try and make rules to cover every possible designation.

 

[mudsticks]

My particular purview is informed by an old friend of mine whom I've known for decades, since well before she transitioned. She's a gentle person with a wide circle of friends, female, male, and other. She's had to change things she does because of abuse and even occasional assault. She offers absolutely no harm to anyone. I think a lot of the abuse is down to the aggressive rhetoric of the kind that Aurora puts forward in her various links. For the record, I can understand her fears but I dislike her mode of putting them forward, because that kind of inflated rhetoric causes harm to a small number of vulnerable people.

I'm sure we all know many lovely people who are trans.
Older and younger.

I know I do, I run women's (and non binary,) events where they are unquestionably welcomed, and have quite a number of trans people in my life both personal friends and union colleagues - as do my kids.

The fact that nasty aggressive people are being nasty and aggressive towards minorities or more vulnerable isn't anything new.

Including nasty aggression against women - this is why some women are scared about the idea of losing their 'safe spaces'

This has always gone on, the internet has emboldened quite a lot of them too.

But to shut down any questions about anything around this issue, by name calling and labelling makes things worse, and plays into the same old aggressive divisiveness that many on here 'claim' to be against.

I'm old enough to remember @Aurora staunching defending trans rights against some pretty old school prejudice from a number of members here

Does she get any credit for that?

Do those people she was informing get anything like the vitriol she receives??

Oh no because they're just unreconstructed old duffers..
So that's ok right??

It's the same old same old policing of women, and their being held to higher standards of 'politeness' that we've always suffered.

Any chance you could point out those places where you do share concerns with @AuroraSaab rather than leap on every tiny word of hers that you disagree with ??

You never know that might cool things down a bit..

A bit of reconciliation instead of battle line positioning..
Howsabout that??

 

[AuroraSaab]

So Ian's argument comes down to 'I know a lovely trans person so women need to accept male bodies in sports, prisons, and single sex services and spaces'.

At least you're being honest now, Ian. Everything else has to come secondary to your trans friend's personal comfort and validation because it's hard being trans. It's hard being female too, mate.

You do realise that most women have fathers, sons, partners, who are kind and lovely? We still don't think they should be in women's changing rooms etc.