Gender again. Sorry!

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monkers

Legendary Member
Oh but dear we can all play the 'only joking' 'I was being 'ironic' card..
Can't we.??

When our oh so clever posting didn't quite land.

As others apparently 'lacking in humour' is a worser crime than steamrollering kittens, right.??

Methinks too much hanging out with Bolders.

Here we are have some of these, they're very useful, and apparently excuse all sorts of bahoolix .

😉😉😉😉😉😉😉

I didn't say I was 'only joking'. I was not. My use of irony is not limited to jokes.

The irony is that there have been multiple times when you've made the same accusation about how women are treated while managing to forget that I too am a woman. I've had cause to challenge this with you before. The sex or gender of a person doesn't matter to me - if they are lying, spouting bigotry, or presenting as an idiot while defending their bigotry while all the time flip-flopping, I'm going to notice it and call it out. That is not misogyny. You may not like to see it, but it's not an attack on women.

As for the rest of your post kittens and stuff - I don't know why you always post this tripe, it adds no value or interest.
 
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monkers

Legendary Member
You do realise that most women have fathers, sons, partners, who are kind and lovely? We still don't think they should be in women's changing rooms etc.

It would be handy to know who is included in this particular 'we' group being as you claim that you are not speaking for all women.
 

mudsticks

Squire
I didn't say I was 'only joking'. I was not. My use of irony is not limited to jokes.

The irony is that there have been multiple times when you've made the same accusation about how women are treated while managing to forget that I too am a woman. The sex or gender of a person doesn't matter to me - if they are lying, spouting bigotry, or presenting as an idiot while defending their bigotry while all the time flip-flopping, I'm going to notice it and call it out. That is not misogyny. You may not like to see it, but it's not an attack on women.

As for the rest of your post kittens and stuff - I don't know what you always post this tripe, it adds no value or interest.

Wow you really are quite arrogant aren't you.. 😉

"Adds no value or interest"

What makes you think I've 'forgotten you're a woman.??

There is plenty of excusing of misogyny, and internalised misogyny, done by women.

We are still living under patriachy and it's historical effects as default, even if some of us have managed to bypass some of its effects some of the time.

The vast majority of the time it's these same patriachal systems, and their hang overs that oppress trans people.

As I've said many times before, if women were not already oppressed as a class, if this oppression had been sorted - mainly sorted by vastly reducing the gender based violence that is already done - then we would have very few clashes between women's, and trans-rights.

As it is there are some issues.

And some unaddressed concerns


But the default solution to those concerns right now seems to be to shout 'bigot' 'terf' or whatever at anyone who dares raise any issue - however politely they do that.

Not to tease out and properly discuss, any of this stuff, in a grown up, or nuanced manner, try to understand or to.address worries or concerns, however 'unreasonable' they may seem.

Let's just get back to shouting down anyone with a slight difference of opinion, and scoring points, eh, that's has a great track record of working things out...

..not.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
Wow you really are quite arrogant aren't you.. 😉

"Adds no value or interest"

What makes you think I've 'forgotten you're a woman.??

There is plenty of excusing of misogyny, and internalised misogyny, done by women.

We are still living under patriachy and it's historical effects as default, even if some of us have managed to bypass some of its effects some of the time.

The vast majority of the time it's these same patriachal systems, and their hang overs that oppress trans people.

As I've said many times before, if women were not already oppressed as a class, if this oppression had been sorted - mainly sorted by vastly reducing the gender based violence that is already done - then we would have very few clashes between women's, and trans-rights.

As it is there are some issues.

And some unaddressed concerns


But the default solution to those concerns right now seems to be to shout 'bigot' 'terf' or whatever at anyone who dares raise any issue - however politely they do that.

Not to tease out and properly discuss, any of this stuff, in a grown up, or nuanced manner, try to understand or to.address worries or concerns, however 'unreasonable' they may seem.

Let's just get back to shouting down anyone with a slight difference of opinion, and scoring points, eh, that's has a great track record of working things out...

..not.

Arrogant? Probably.

You see you've exaggerated your case, which doesn't play well does it?

You've jumped in to defend Aurora, while other people, including other women here, seem to have come to a similar conclusion.

I've been exposing the lies and bigotry of one woman; yes just one.

In the early stages of conversation I was polite, however I've been worn down by ongoing lies and bigotry from one poster, and I've expressed my weariness with it.

We are talking about a woman who has spent so many hours constructing an argument that trans women are dangerous predators. This is false, and it is dangerous because the frequency and level of harm experienced by trans people has escalated. And yes I'm angry because whenever a news story regarding this is related to Aurora she diminishes the horror of it.

When I mentioned the recent experiences of my niece, how did Aurora reply? It was carefree. Instead of care, she launched into attack mode banging on about a minor incident or other that had occurred in Canada.

She seems happy about the hate that this campaign is causing and the effects. The bigotry is awful and it is unjustifiable.

Now it is not just trans women at risk of harm, it is other women. Each day I see reports of women attacked due to some perception of them being trans. This is getting out of control.

BTW, 'ironic' is the word being used in reports of women being attacked due to trans perception. Here's an example ...

That the current hysteria over bathrooms is leading to women, trans or not, getting harassed in bathrooms is, on top of plain awful, ironic. After all, harassment is one of the things those who oppose letting trans people use the bathroom for their gender identity supposedly want to prevent. They claim trans-friendly policies will allow men to disguise themselves as women, go into women's bathrooms, and harass or assault women.

The claim is a myth: Multiple investigations have found states and schools that have had legal protections for trans people for years have never linked an instance of sexual assault or harassment in a bathroom to trans-friendly policies. (The only bathroom harassment historically related to trans people, in fact, seems to be harassment and discrimination against trans people.)
 
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mudsticks

Squire
Arrogant? Probably.

You see you've exaggerated your case, which doesn't play well does it?

You've jumped in to defend Aurora, while other people, including other women here, seem to have come to a similar conclusion.

I've been exposing the lies and bigotry of one woman; yes just one.

In the early stages of conversation I was polite, however I've been worn down by ongoing lies and bigotry from one poster, and I've expressed my weariness with it.

We are talking about a woman who has spent so many hours constructing an argument that trans women are dangerous predators. This is false, and it is dangerous because the frequency and level of harm experienced by trans people has escalated. And yes I'm angry because whenever a news story regarding this is related to Aurora she diminishes the horror of it.

When I mentioned the recent experiences of my niece, how did Aurora reply? It was carefree. Instead of care, she launched into attack mode banging on about a minor incident or other that had occurred in Canada.

She seems happy about the hate that this campaign is causing and the effects. The bigotry is awful and it is unjustifiable.

Now it is not just trans women at risk of harm, it is other women. Each day I see reports of women attacked due to some perception of them being trans. This is getting out of control.

BTW, 'ironic' is the word being used in reports of women being attacked due to trans perception. Here's an example ...


It's a bit rich to claim that 'misresprentation' is being done by one poster, and then to throw out such accusations about other people being seemingly 'happy about hatred'.

I personally don't think that's a fair representation.

But it will probably keep being thrown until it sticks - right enough.
 
It would be handy to know who is included in this particular 'we' group being as you claim that you are not speaking for all women.

I don't know of anybody who thinks all males should be allowed in single sex services and spaces on the basis that they are nice people. Perhaps the blokes on here can confirm they think they should, because if you argue that transwomen are to be treated differently from other men - which you try to do but haven't managed a single convincing argument - that's the obvious outcome. Let all the nice blokes in.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
It's a bit rich to claim that 'misresprentation' is being done by one poster, and then to throw out such accusations about other people being seemingly 'happy about hatred'.

I personally don't think that's a fair representation.

But it will probably keep being thrown until it sticks - right enough.

Ironic again. You see I happen to think that mud sticks, and Aurora has sure done some mud slinging at trans people, and will no doubt continue to do so.

Other people have also expressed that they don't believe Aurora. I've used the word 'lies', others have been less direct, however people are saying that she does not speak the truth.

Not sure that I've used the expression 'happy about hatred'. A search didn't find it, perhaps you'll oblige me with a quote of me making that particular accusation.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
I don't know of anybody who thinks all males should be allowed in single sex services and spaces on the basis that they are nice people. Perhaps the blokes on here can confirm they think they should, because if you argue that transwomen are to be treated differently from other men - which you try to do but haven't managed a single convincing argument - that's the obvious outcome. Let all the nice blokes in.

So again, who are the people in this 'we' group - because you haven't answered the question. I'd like to know who you are representing every time you say this.
 

Milzy

Well-Known Member
IMG_1987.jpeg
 

monkers

Legendary Member
I don't know of anybody who thinks all males should be allowed in single sex services and spaces on the basis that they are nice people. Perhaps the blokes on here can confirm they think they should, because if you argue that transwomen are to be treated differently from other men - which you try to do but haven't managed a single convincing argument - that's the obvious outcome. Let all the nice blokes in.

I haven't said anything about trans women being 'nice blokes' so they should be allowed in. Pure invention again on your part.

I have consistently made reference to human rights law, especially when you mischaracterise it, or very conveniently forget what it actually says.

You've been asked time and again by posters to publish actual data to support your claims. Rather than evidence we get some random story of low level harm from Canada in 2014 or whatever it was.

It's easy to find harm to trans women and cis women through trans perception. It's happened to me, and if I remember you admitted that it had happened to you.

The trans people that I know happen to be nice people, because I find the majority of people that I meet to be decent people - a few, not so much. But when people actually sit down with a trans woman and chat, they find that the current discourse is awful. In the Guardian today ...

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/jun/15/dining-across-the-divide-teresa-lyn
 
So again, who are the people in this 'we' group - because you haven't answered the question. I'd like to know who you are representing every time you say this.

I represent myself, just as you do. Public surveys on single sex services and spaces seem to agree with me though (though of course nobody can consent on someone else's behalf to things like intimate care etc anyway).

Here's another one on sports from this week:
https://news.gallup.com/poll/507023/say-birth-gender-dictate-sports-participation.aspx

"A larger majority of Americans now (69%) than in 2021 (62%) say transgender athletes should only be allowed to compete on sports teams that conform with their birth gender".

I haven't said anything about trans women being 'nice blokes' so they should be allowed in. Pure invention again on your part.
You've at least twice given us lengthy postings on hrt and floppy penises as evidence that transwomen are unable to rape anyone. Even though that is a) irrelevant and b) nobody could possibly know which males are on hrt, and c) hrt is not required to be a transwoman.

I have consistently made reference to human rights law, especially when you mischaracterise it, or very conveniently forget what it actually says.
You've suggested the nebulous 'laws' of the UN override UK domestic law. They don't - countries can implement these UN principles as they see fit. I have quoted at length from the Equality Act; you simply don't accept it because... well who knows anymore.
You've been asked time and again by posters to publish actual data to support your claims.
UK data on trans prisoners, surveys, polls of female athletes..... vs your treatise on floppy dicks and anecdotes and emotive special pleading.
Rather than evidence we get some random story of low level harm from Canada in 2014 or whatever it was.
You missed the Isla Bryson discussion it seems.
Two people having a nice chat. It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether gender identity should override sex in law as a general principle.
 
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