Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

But isn't the chap on the floor your non-binary friend?

Come on Mr Cowden, I think you a decent chap and not that hard of thinking that you can't understand an analogy. My friend is not an entrant into the female category of the human race, they are remaining in there. They just can't be bothered with the social conditions that people try to impose on her using their tropes of what as a 'she' must look like in order to be a woman. A great deal of what they hear is that 'she is too tall to be a woman'. They are also sick and tired about the mischaracterisation of the so-called trans debate where trans people are characterised as predators, groomers, paedophiles etc.

My friend is not so much opting in to a category as opting out of one while not intending any form of transition. My friend says that their sense of gender identity has never been very strong. They put this down to childhood bullying about height and size having been very damaging for them. They say that things improved for them in adulthood, but the increase in hate towards trans people has upset them so very much, especially as they themself has also been a target of gender critical women.

 

[icowden]

I changed nothing at all about your quote except to put these things in.. to show where you'd said it.

Sorry @mudsticks, @monkers is right. You didn't directly quote her but said the same thing in slightly different words.

She seems happy about the hate that this campaign is causing and the effects.

'happy about hatred'

it was the "red" you added, and the missing "the" that completely invalidated your point. Maybe it was some sort of flag?

 

[monkers]

Sorry @mudsticks, @monkers is right. You didn't directly quote her but said the same thing in slightly different words.




it was the "red" you added, and the missing "the" that completely invalidated your point. Maybe it was some sort of flag?

Thank you, but I also noticed the use of the words 'other people' while talking about my opinions of Aurora. There were no 'other people'. just the person in question.

There was also some characterisation that because I have slight differences of opinion, that I should accommodate her views.

There are no slight difference in opinions, I am diametrically opposed to all forms of bigotry, These are not views I can accommodate, especially as Aurora is an absolutist and flat out refuses accommodation while parroting the phrase 'not prepared to be kind'.

 

[mudsticks]

Sorry @mudsticks, @monkers is right. You didn't directly quote her but said the same thing in slightly different words.




it was the "red" you added, and the missing "the" that completely invalidated your point. Maybe it was some sort of flag?

Yes thanks, I see now how my original paraphrasing of what she said, completely skewed the whole meaning overall, and she didn't suggest at all that @AuroraSaab seemed happy about the hate 🙄

 

[icowden]

Come on Mr Cowden, I think you a decent chap and not that hard of thinking that you can't understand an analogy.

I understand the analogy but I'm afraid I think it works both ways. Your friend has the choice of two different benches - the female bench or the open bench. But she wants to set fire to the female bench because it doesn't accommodate her unless she forces everyone else out of it.

My friend is not an entrant into the female category of the human race, they are remaining in there.

Then she can race in the female category.

They just can't be bothered with the social conditions that people try to impose on her using their tropes of what as a 'she' must look like in order to be a woman.

Which is absolutely fair enough.

A great deal of what they hear is that 'she is too tall to be a woman'. They are also sick and tired about the mischaracterisation of the so-called trans debate where trans people are characterised as predators, groomers, paedophiles etc.

Again, I do understand that and sympathise - but this goes back to my venn diagram. It's not the people like your niece or your friend that are causing the problem. It's the people "standing up" for them and threatening women, or the people abusing the notion of "trans" to flash their genitals or make unwelcome advances, or want to join groups that do not want them.

Unfortunately you can't have one without the other. If you make it easier to join a group by getting rid of diagnosis, getting rid of any stringent requirements then there are people who will take advantage. I'm quite sure the transwoman who works at my local rail station and keeps herself to herself has no interest in the outliers any more than the chap who wears a dress to go to a group that I attend.

Most people don't have an issue with people who are trans or non binary, pansexual or furry wolf people or whatever. The problem starts to arise when you make it easier for the lunatics to join a group or when you start forcing everyone else to do things that just don't come naturally. If you ask me to call you he or she I don't mind. I'll try to remember. "Them" is a bit harder - I'll try but it doesn't make linguistic sense a lot of the time.

Unfortunately you cannot protect genuinely trans people if you make it so that anyone can be trans if they fill in a form.

 

[monkers]

Yes thanks, I see now how my original paraphrasing of what she said, completely skewed the whole meaning overall, and she didn't suggest at all that @AuroraSaab seemed happy about the hate 🙄

I didn't suggest that Aurora seemed happy about the hate. I said it, but you also said 'other people'. There were no 'other people'.

 

[monkers]

I understand the analogy but I'm afraid I think it works both ways. Your friend has the choice of two different benches - the female bench or the open bench. But she wants to set fire to the female bench because it doesn't accommodate her unless she forces everyone else out of it.

I'm sorry Mr Cowden but that is clearly a piece of nonsense. I have tried to explain why my friend is furious. My friend has been in contact with somebody at CTT and been told they must compete in the open category in upcoming time trials. My friend is not a pro rider, therefore they are correct in saying that this policy is being applied to club level amateur sport. The CTT have told my friend that their rule is that people who do not identify as male or female must ride in the open category. My friend affirmed in the conversation that they are female as per the title of the category, and as per the rule, that there is no current or intended change to their sex, but that for personal reasons they prefer to say that their gender identity is non-binary. Such is the calibre of the CTT (and Aurora's) reasoning, that makes competition unfair. Clearly the argument is bogus and discriminatory.

 

[AuroraSaab]

We agree (the bolded bit), but the solution is not to argue to remove the rights of the smaller group just because you happen by accident to be in the larger group.

Lol. Men aren't the smaller group. Men with special identities are still just men. They haven't lost any rights because they never had the right to be in women's spaces and services (on those very few, very limited occasions when those spaces and services are needed) in the first place.

Trans women with a GRC are not men, they are women - parliament decided it (not me) in 2003, some twenty years ago.

Still men, just in law allowed to be treated as women in certain circumstances. A piece of paper doesn't change your sex.
Transmen still can't inherit aristocratic titles for example. Transwomen can.

What trans activism is pursuing is the realisation of the promises that parliament / government have made, and inevitably reneged on.

I'm not sure the general public, or the government, ever thought trans rights meant access for men to women's refuges or the promise they could be in women's sports.

Oh look, transwoman Cara Dixon has won the Trans Atlantic Way Ireland cycle race. That thing that hardly ever happens has happened again.

It's been a long day. Highlights? Monkers misgendering their anecdotal friend several times over in the same paragraph, not even noticing, then trying very hard not to do it again after it was pointed out to them.

 

[monkers]

Men with special identities are still just men.

You just don't get it do you. Under the law this is discrimination and unlawful. Saying this to trans people with a GRC can be a form of harassment.

It's not that I am any kind of bigot in pointing out your aggrieved entitlement, it's that your attitudes are indeed transphobic.

 

[monkers]

A piece of paper doesn't change your sex.

For the purposes of the law it does - not biological sex, but legal sex. A trans woman with a GRC has a birth certificate much like mine. Please desist from saying otherwise because it make you appear an idiot after having this explained to you so many times.

Nobody but nobody says that a GRC changes all biology of biological sex, other than idiots.

 

[monkers]

I'm not sure the general public, or the government, ever thought trans rights meant access for men to women's refuges or the promise they could be in women's sports.

Blatantly bogus. The truth never matters to you does it.

 

[multitool]

You have no idea why I find that insulting and I am not prepared to give you a detailed breakdown. The point is that you have been told and like a small child excited about finding their own shoot on the end of their finger you are delightedly smearing it up the walls deliberately because you know that I don't like it.

This just illustrates the small minded petty moron that you are. Instead of insulting and belittling people why not actually debate people? Oh yes, it's because you are such a know it all genius with a brain the size of a planet that other people's points of view, research, etc don't matter. Only the great @multitool can possibly be right. Anyone else gets insulted and belittled, especially when you make a mistake and can't posit a counter argument/

Try listening and engaging and you *might* actually learn something.

Oh - and if you want to speak to me use my handle correctly or fark off and stick your finger back up your anus for another probe.

Dear oh dear. That's quite the tantrum. And all because I shorten your username.

 

[monkers]

Again, I do understand that and sympathise - but this goes back to my venn diagram. It's not the people like your niece or your friend that are causing the problem. It's the people "standing up" for them and threatening women, or the people abusing the notion of "trans" to flash their genitals or make unwelcome advances, or want to join groups that do not want them.

Unfortunately you can't have one without the other. If you make it easier to join a group by getting rid of diagnosis, getting rid of any stringent requirements then there are people who will take advantage. I'm quite sure the transwoman who works at my local rail station and keeps herself to herself has no interest in the outliers any more than the chap who wears a dress to go to a group that I attend.

Most people don't have an issue with people who are trans or non binary, pansexual or furry wolf people or whatever. The problem starts to arise when you make it easier for the lunatics to join a group or when you start forcing everyone else to do things that just don't come naturally. If you ask me to call you he or she I don't mind. I'll try to remember. "Them" is a bit harder - I'll try but it doesn't make linguistic sense a lot of the time.

Unfortunately you cannot protect genuinely trans people if you make it so that anyone can be trans if they fill in a form.

Unfortunately this is a piece that demonstrates that you've been captured by the lies, false claims and misrepresentations that abound. You are far from alone. The gish galloping about gender incongruent people is much like the output of gish gallop we saw over Brexit, with the '20 things you don't know about the Lisbon Treaty' etc. All of that output was false. After the referendum Dominic Cummings boasted about his success in the referendum using such techniques. He repeated the trick in the 2019 general election and again people fell for it, only to be disappointed later. Look at the state of the country since!

I also note that while you say you sympathise, you also use the word 'lunatics'.

I do see that you are somebody who makes an attempt to fair and reasonable, and my earlier 'decent chap' remark was sincere, but until you manage to shrug off the propaganda you'll remain captured.

So let's stop with the 'furry wolf' taunt. There are no human rights in regard to a protected characteristic, and 'furry wolf' is not an identity that people present with full-time - though no offence is committed if somebody does just that, they are not protected from discrimination in law.

We don't have a system whereby filling in a form changes one's sex or gender identity - this is just not true, it's a trope advanced by anti-trans activists.

The goal of the anti-trans activists is to introduce a legal definition of sex as only biological sex. If adopted that will place an intolerable amount of stress on the 7000 or so trans people with a GRC and those who would wish to apply in the future. It serves to reverse their legal identity. Marriages that were formed legally could be declared invalid.

 

[classic33]

Lol. Men aren't the smaller group. Men with special identities are still just men. They haven't lost any rights because they never had the right to be in women's spaces and services (on those very few, very limited occasions when those spaces and services are needed) in the first place.

Still men, just in law allowed to be treated as women in certain circumstances. A piece of paper doesn't change your sex.
Transmen still can't inherit aristocratic titles for example. Transwomen can.



I'm not sure the general public, or the government, ever thought trans rights meant access for men to women's refuges or the promise they could be in women's sports.

Oh look, transwoman Cara Dixon has won the Trans Atlantic Way Ireland cycle race. That thing that hardly ever happens has happened again.

It's been a long day. Highlights? Monkers misgendering their anecdotal friend several times over in the same paragraph, not even noticing, then trying very hard not to do it again after it was pointed out to them.

Sir Ewan Forbes-Sempill, 1968

 

[classic33]

Lol. Men aren't the smaller group. Men with special identities are still just men. They haven't lost any rights because they never had the right to be in women's spaces and services (on those very few, very limited occasions when those spaces and services are needed) in the first place.

Still men, just in law allowed to be treated as women in certain circumstances. A piece of paper doesn't change your sex.
Transmen still can't inherit aristocratic titles for example. Transwomen can.

I'm not sure the general public, or the government, ever thought trans rights meant access for men to women's refuges or the promise they could be in women's sports.

Oh look, transwoman Cara Dixon has won the Trans Atlantic Way Ireland cycle race. That thing that hardly ever happens has happened again.

It's been a long day. Highlights? Monkers misgendering their anecdotal friend several times over in the same paragraph, not even noticing, then trying very hard not to do it again after it was pointed out to them.

How can anyone win a race that isn't a race? Please explain.
"Under a question on the site which asks, ‘What is the difference between a ride and a race?’, it says: “The TransAtlanticWay is not a ride in the conventional sense. There is no prize for 1st, 2nd and 3rd."

From
https://www.thejournal.ie/transatlantic-way-womens-category-trans-athlete-6091804-Jun2023/