Gender again. Sorry!

[mudsticks]

I'd already explained that if you don't use the same form of words, then the search facility fails to find it.

It was also obvious that you used attempted to portray something that wasn't true with your 'other posters'. It was only about Aurora.

There is no denial from me about what I said about Aurora, and I'm not taking it back.

There was other crap, something about steamrolling kittens. WTAF. And then something about hanging out with Bolders - whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. What are 'Bolders'? Actually don't bother, it's obviously just some fiction that was supposed to put me in my place.

The Bolders thing was a bit of a light-hearted 'in in joke' about another forum member, who tries to use the 'only joking' line to wheel in all manner of dull old stuff, but if you don't go to other threads I guess you wouldn't have got it..

The steamrollering kittens thing was also about the supposed 'terrible sin' of not having a soh when other folks make a joke, but it doesn't land so well, but never mind, you seem to think it was an attempt to 'put you in your place'

'Shushing women'. It's not about shushing women. It's not the same as the ordinary experience of women being told to pipe down, or being told they are shrill. It's about exposing the truth that when a group, or groups of people use speech against another group of people such the frequency and level of hate crime against another group are intensified. It's not just me saying it, and it's not a case of those pesky trans activists saying it, it is the United Nations, Liberty, Amnesty International and other rights groups saying it. The terrorism is not in my words, I am not demonising women, I'm calling out a forum opponent because she is not interested in any distress she causes.



You can make your own responses as mild-mannered or mealy-mouthed as you like, that's a matter for you. However just how polite would you be feeling if those subjected to violent attack are your own family?

So if you want to make facile comparisons about 'steamrolling kittens' or opaque lines such as 'hanging out with Bolders', go ahead but don't expect me to be impressed.

Violence dressed up as 'legitimate concerns' is not legitimate or proportional action.

You're assuming that I don't have members of my family who can be subject to attack because of their presentation.

One of my (male) children routinely goes out dressed in what is considered 'women's clothing' and gets harassed by various 'numbskulls' for that.

I have trans friends (in both directions) I'm not unaware, or indifferent to the prejudices, and harassments they face either.

But using personal anecdote can often (but not always) be used to close down a more generalised debate.

I could go on about the awful abuse and trauma that I and so many.other women have suffered at the hands of male bodied people, to beef up my argument for everyone needing to be more understanding around women wanting to preserve their female only spaces.

In order to garner more sympathy for that 'cause'.

But I don't, because that's just results in tit for tat 'hierachy of suffering' back and forth.

When it's clear that all most of us want is a big reduction of violence (in all its forms) done to everyone all round.

But who does (the vast majority of) that violence, and social control through threat of violence.?

If we are to work together on that harm reduction, then you can't just shut down anyone expressing their fears - however 'foolish' or 'uneducated' you might consider those fears.

Especially if they're expressing fears about their own safety, however erroneous that fear may be in your (or even my) view...


..well you can shut them down, but imo it doesn't actually help anything to truly progress in the long run.

It just polarises the whole issue further - which in turn plays into the hands of those who have a vested interested in wanting to see that violence and it's social control structures continue.

 

[monkers]

This so-called debate is not the battle between trans people and cis people as often thought. Indeed not, it is a battle between the beliefs of groups of cis people with varying beliefs. Broadly there are two groups; the feminists to the left, and the gender critical people from the right.

I'm not prepared to be kind to people who want to kill women lol. You bang on about kindness but have no kindness for women who don't want to get undressed around men. If a girl or woman sees a penis in the women's changing rooms, you said she should look away. Your demand for kindness only goes one way as usual.


Half your posts are emotive pleading and anecdotes we are meant to believe wholesale. You don't even read half your own links. Your one yesterday about women beating men at ultra distance events even had the female subject of the article saying 'Women only win because it's more mental than physical' in distance events. Some gotcha that was lol.


It's hyperbole like this that makes people see much transactivism for the overwrought nonsense it is. On this thread you've appropriated everything from persecution by the Nazis to the black rights struggle, and with a side mention of genocide this morning for good measure.

Bollocks. Utter bollock. You have nothing, so you just chat random shoot..

When I say things like people like Posie Parker borrow from the lessons of fascism - that is a truth. When I say the it was not only Jewish people who were persecuted by the Nazis but provide a full list of the numbers of lives known to be lost by category - that is a truth, there are identifiable shared features.

The ultra-right in the USA are actively removing women's rights, gay rights, trans rights. And it's coming here - and you are not one of the voices actively shouting it down. Instead you provide defence for the activists here doing it, like Posie Parker. As a woman you should be afraid of that woman.

You can't undo this by screaming 'hyperbole'.

 

[Ian H]

MacKinnon is able to see fault on both sides, and the difference in outcome.

I think it is really important to acknowledge that, in this debate or discussion, there are two sides. The misogyny from people in both corners is really distressing. To see gender-critical voices and advocates go for the most appearance-based misogynistic targeting of trans people is deeply painful. Then to see trans advocates — and not all of them are trans themselves — use the most violent and misogynistic language toward other women is also tragic. They are essentially replaying the same things that are being done to them by patriarchy and directing them at other women who are highly vulnerable to those attacks.
One distinction, though, that is very important to note is that one group, including so-called gender-critical people, are essentially trying to legislate another group out of existence.

 

[AuroraSaab]

One distinction, though, that is very important to note is that one group, including so-called gender-critical people, are essentially trying to legislate another group out of existence.

This is simply not the case in the UK.

As a woman you should be afraid of that woman.

I'm more scared of those on your side who threaten to kill women to be honest.

 

[monkers]

The Bolders thing was a bit of a light-hearted 'in in joke' about another forum member, who tries to use the 'only joking' line to wheel in all manner of dull old stuff, but if you don't go to other threads I guess you wouldn't have got it..

The steamrollering kittens thing was also about the supposed 'terrible sin' of not having a soh when other folks make a joke, but it doesn't land so well, but never mind, you seem to think it was an attempt to 'put you in your place'



You're assuming that I don't have members of my family who can be subject to attack because of their presentation.

One of my (male) children routinely goes out dressed in what is considered 'women's clothing' and gets harassed by various 'numbskulls' for that.

I have trans friends (in both directions) I'm not unaware, or indifferent to the prejudices, and harassments they face either.

But using personal anecdote can often (but not always) be used to close down a more generalised debate.

I could go on about the awful abuse and trauma that I and so many.other women have suffered at the hands of male bodied people, to beef up my argument for everyone needing to be more understanding around women wanting to preserve their female only spaces.

In order to garner more sympathy for that 'cause'.

But I don't, because that's just results in tit for tat 'hierachy of suffering' back and forth.

When it's clear that all most of us want is a big reduction of violence (in all its forms) done to everyone all round.

But who does (the vast majority of) that violence, and social control through threat of violence.?

If we are to work together on that harm reduction, then you can't just shut down anyone expressing their fears - however 'foolish' or 'uneducated' you might consider those fears.

Especially if they're expressing fears about their own safety, however erroneous that fear may be in your (or even my) view...


..well you can shut them down, but imo it doesn't actually help anything to truly progress in the long run.

It just polarises the whole issue further - which in turn plays into the hands of those who have a vested interested in wanting to see that violence and it's social control structures continue.

Your male child should not be harassed for the manner of their dress. I deplore it, and I'll stand up for them however they identify, and I am deeply sorry to hear it. Trans perception seems to bring out all kinds of irrationality from others. Yes there is free speech, but there is not speech free from consequence, and people need to learn the difference. Trouble is we have a government who are not keen to educate people to the difference but just bang on about free speech as if it is an absolute right to say anything without consequence. Johnson being one of them and now squealing like a stuck pig because he's found that out the hard way this week.

When we have reports of the increasing frequency and levels of hate crime - I've previously posted that official data - then it is right to call it out. When the United Nations expert visits and states that he is alarmed by the levels of hate crime, we should not be shy to call it out.

Let's not shush about the violence visited on women, on gay people, on trans people and let's not leave out men as victims from that list. Let's call it out. Let's call out the increasing levels of rape, and the decreasing numbers of charges and conviction, And let's call out the false narrative of men's groups that wrongly say that the number of false rape allegations is 40%. If we need to shout to be heard, then let's shout. Let's not sit on our hands, let's not be quiet. But let's not over-egg the message that demonises men as rapists, they are not.

What we have are political failures. I keep saying it, and I'll keep saying it. These failures are excused by the Johnsonian finger-pointing blaming others. The culture way is manufactured. The demonisation of asylum seekers as criminals of all types is manufactured. It borrows from fascism, demonise others, make people afraid of them, promise solution, then blame others when those promises are not fulfilled, instead just ratchet up the narrative a few notches.

We need to stop those people spreading the hate, and that includes getting rid of this wretched group of people who have managed to come to power in this country.

How vulnerable we've become, and collectively what fools we are to have enabled it. All we have is the truth, let's use it.

 

[monkers]

I'm more scared of those on your side who threaten to kill women to be honest.

This is an absolutely disgusting mischaracterisation of my position. Just fark off and when you've got to somewhere else, fark off some more.

 

[AuroraSaab]

If you can continually align my views with the views of the US right wing, crying Nazi and fascist every five minutes, you should be just as willing to own the extreme views from your own side.

 

[monkers]

If you can continually align my views with the views of the US right wing, crying Nazi and fascist every five minutes, you should be just as willing to own the extreme views from your own side.

From memory this is about your third attempt to make this false claim. I've needed to rebut this before, but I'm not playing your game any more. Just fark off.

 

[newfhouse]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/14/world/canada/girl-athlete-trans-gender.html

A price worth paying? Couldn't or wouldn't happen here?

 

[Bromptonaut]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/14/world/canada/girl-athlete-trans-gender.html

A price worth paying? Couldn't or wouldn't happen here?

Paywalled??

 

[mudsticks]

Your male child should not be harassed for the manner of their dress. I deplore it, and I'll stand up for them however they identify, and I am deeply sorry to hear it. Trans perception seems to bring out all kinds of irrationality from others. Yes there is free speech, but there is not speech free from consequence, and people need to learn the difference. Trouble is we have a government who are not keen to educate people to the difference but just bang on about free speech as if it is an absolute right to say anything without consequence. Johnson being one of them and now squealing like a stuck pig because he's found that out the hard way this week.

When we have reports of the increasing frequency and levels of hate crime - I've previously posted that official data - then it is right to call it out. When the United Nations expert visits and states that he is alarmed by the levels of hate crime, we should not be shy to call it out.

Let's not shush about the violence visited on women, on gay people, on trans people and let's not leave out men as victims from that list. Let's call it out. Let's call out the increasing levels of rape, and the decreasing numbers of charges and conviction, And let's call out the false narrative of men's groups that wrongly say that the number of false rape allegations is 40%. If we need to shout to be heard, then let's shout. Let's not sit on our hands, let's not be quiet. But let's not over-egg the message that demonises men as rapists, they are not.

What we have are political failures. I keep saying it, and I'll keep saying it. These failures are excused by the Johnsonian finger-pointing blaming others. The culture way is manufactured. The demonisation of asylum seekers as criminals of all types is manufactured. It borrows from fascism, demonise others, make people afraid of them, promise solution, then blame others when those promises are not fulfilled, instead just ratchet up the narrative a few notches.

We need to stop those people spreading the hate, and that includes getting rid of this wretched group of people who have managed to come to power in this country.

How vulnerable we've become, and collectively what fools we are to have enabled it. All we have is the truth, let's use it.

That harassment of a 'man' wearing what is considered female attire often seems to be as a result of misogyny in the first place .

"How could you want to be associated with femaleness - when they're the 'second class' people.

But there are others who seem to think it's a way of 'hoodwinking' or 'impersonation'.

It still amazes me that something as insignificant of wearing one tube of fabric around your lower body instead of two carries so much 'cultural' significance, even now ..


I'm well aware that a lot of 'our' problems are caused by this terrible 'government' but it's also down to the internet, and it's polarising effect.

The ignorant cries of "mah freeze peach" and the overlooking of the fact that with that 'freedom' comes responsibility and consequences, are not perculiar to the UK though - it's pretty much worldwide.

I've brought up VAWAG repeatedly, and the need for it to be tackled properly, both here and on the CC site many times before, and plenty other places I've shouted about it, and it's routinely been ignored, or diminished by 'men get attacked too you know' or similar.

The interest in talking about or finding solutions to that particular problem, which is much much larger sheer numbers wise, than violence against trans people, seems very muted, in comparison, on here at least.

The reasons for that lack of interest??
It might actually require 'ordinary' but decent men to step up and do, or say something, even when it feels awkward.
To really acknowledge the magnitude of the problem.

And that this is why 'some' women will say they are highly reluctant to give up their female only spaces.

I don't think that anyone even vaguely rational demonises 'all' men as rapists .

But at the same time there is a massive indifference to the causes of VAWAG, and misogynistic rape culture, that doesn't seem to be shifting either.

Which comes back to how we value and truly uphold the rights of women to lead safe, respected, and even autonomous lives.
Whatever they 'look' like.
How we properly acknowledge that.


My boy says that he gets much less hassle for his dress wearing nowadays, perhaps all that building site work has made him look like more of a prospect to tackle ??

I dunno, but really we should be well beyond needing to be looking like beefcake before we feel safe on the streets in a frock..

 

[newfhouse]

Paywalled??

A man who questioned a 9-year-old girl’s gender at an athletic event in British Columbia has spurred outrage in Canada after one of the girl’s mothers said the man wrongly insisted her daughter was either a boy or transgender, and demanded proof that she was female.

Heidi Starr said that her daughter was taking part in a shot-put competition in Kelowna, British Columbia, last week, when Josef Tesar, the grandfather of another student, suddenly insisted that her daughter was either a boy or transgender and should be disqualified from the competition.

“My daughter is a girl, was born female, and uses she/her pronouns. She has a pixie cut,” Ms. Starr said by phone.

Mr. Tesar demanded that she provide a certificate proving that her daughter was born female, and refused entreaties to leave the event, she said, adding that “his wife was shouting that supporters of trans kids are groomers and genital mutilators.”

Mr. Tesar has denied that he verbally accosted Ms. Starr or her daughter, telling Castanet, a local online news website, that he was watching his granddaughter compete when he noticed another child, who he thought was a boy, in the competition. He said he then walked over to an official to ask if the event was coed.

“I never yelled toward the girl,” he told Castanet. “I went to the official in private and asked one only question if this a mixed competition,” he said.

In 2017, Canada’s Parliament introduced federal protections for transgender and nonbinary citizens by amending the Canadian Human Rights Act to include “gender identity” or “gender expression” among a list of identifiable groups protected from discrimination.

But some human rights advocates contend that the debate in the United States and legislation targeting transgender people is also stoking transphobia in Canada.

Travers, a professor of sociology at Simon Fraser University in Vancouver, who has written a book about transgender children and who goes by one name, said the incident reflected how transphobia in the United States, fanned by, among other things, laws barring transgender girls and women from competing in girls’ and women’s sports, had increasingly crossed the border into Canada.

“Despite Canadian self-congratulatory tendencies about being liberal and progressive, transphobia is something that trans people experience in Canada on a regular basis,” they said. “If someone doesn’t appear consistent with stereotypes you see this policing of gender. It is horrific they would do this to a child,” they added.
The episode has fueled anger on social media and an outpouring of support for the girl, including from the premier of British Columbia, David Eby, who lashed out against transphobia.
“This is awful. This kind of hate is not acceptable or welcome in British Columbia. Let’s keep calling out transphobia when we see it,” he wrote on Twitter. “Hate hurts everyone. And let’s stand with this girl and everyone who is targeted just for being themselves.”

Ms. Starr said her daughter had been deeply shaken by what she called the verbal aggression against her.

“My daughter was physically shaking so hard, she was sobbing. She has never been exposed to queer or trans hate before. It rocked our whole family. It’s shocking. Who does this to a child?”

She added: “We hope that other people will now call out all the hate.”

 

[multitool]

The end result of all this transphobic bollox is that REAL harm is done to girls and women because of it, rather than the imaginary harms done to women and girls by trans women.

 

[multitool]

If you can continually align my views with the views of the US right wing, crying Nazi and fascist every five minutes, you should be just as willing to own the extreme views from your own side.

Well, at least you are now admitting you are aligned with Nazis

 

[AuroraSaab]

I could put a dozen news reports up of how gender identity over riding sex has harmed women and girls, and title it 'A price worth paying?'. Your response would be 'Yes, but this hardly ever happens... this case is an outlier..... it doesn't really matter anyway.... it's just a few ....'

'A price worth paying?' Not a price likely to be paid by any of you lot anyway.