Gender again. Sorry!

[multitool]

We'll never know for sure exactly where this male triple killer is within the women's prison though because with self ID it relies on other prisoners letting the outside world know what's going on - and the mainstream press aren't touching these stories, which means they never happen according to your logic.

In amongst Aurora's bullsh1t here are the facts:

In 2021 Trans women prisoners in California became able to request to be in a female prison.

Requesting does not mean the request will be granted.

Of about 3000 TW prisoners only 300 made this request.

90% of these had their requests denied.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Well it's been granted in this case. And death row prisoners are being moved to the general population so there will be a male triple killer amongst the general female population pretty soon.

Of about 3000 TW prisoners only 300 made this request. 90% of these had their requests denied.

Link for that claim? 90% have been denied - or just not had a decision made yet?

There aren't 3,000 transwomen prisoners in California jails, that's a rough national figure. As some states don't allow transfer at all, many requests are automatically denied. Official stats for California are:

"As of May 28, 2023, there were 1,755 incarcerated people identified as transgender, non-binary and intersex". Self ID of course.

Still, there's a male triple killer in the women's jail, amongst the general population some time soon if not immediately, and you guys still don't see a problem. There's literally nothing you won't defend.

 

[classic33]

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/13/1148846720/california-says-it-will-dismantle-death-row-the-move-brings-cheers-and-anger#:~:text=The%20move%20brings%20cheers%20and%20anger,-Listen%C2%B7%204%3A43&text=Sullivan%2FGetty%20Images-,California's%20San%20Quentin%20prison%20houses%20the%20state's%20only%20death%20row,women%20will%20soon%20be%20dismantled
.

There's no death row per se anymore. All 'death row' prisoners are gradually being moved into the general population. We'll never know for sure exactly where this male triple killer is within the women's prison though because with self ID it relies on other prisoners letting the outside world know what's going on - and the mainstream press aren't touching these stories, which means they never happen according to your logic.

I wouldn't argue with the ending of death row segregation within sexed prisons, but the gymnastics being done here to justify a male triple killer in a women's jail is quite something.

Maybe if you took the time, instead of rushing to post it from your search results, it may just work

View: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/13/1148846720/california-says-it-will-dismantle-death-row-the-move-brings-cheers-and-anger

Same piece, but look at the actual link.

Female serial killer, Cynthia Coffman to be moved from death row in California, and placed among the general prison population.

 

[classic33]

Well it's been granted in this case. And death row prisoners are being moved to the general population so there will be a male triple killer amongst the general female population pretty soon.


Link for that claim? 90% have been denied - or just not had a decision made yet?

There aren't 3,000 transwomen prisoners in California jails, that's a rough national figure. As some states don't allow transfer at all, many requests are automatically denied. Official stats for California are:

"As of May 28, 2023, there were 1,755 incarcerated people identified as transgender, non-binary and intersex". Self ID of course.

Still, there's a male triple killer in the women's jail, amongst the general population some time soon if not immediately, and you guys still don't see a problem. There's literally nothing you won't defend.

The judge and the state law don't appear to see it that way.

If she'd had you on her defence team, she probably wouldn't have even sent to prison. Diminished responsibilities due to being psychotic at the time of the murders and not fit to stand trial due to it.

Where's the empathy, from yourself now, for the families of those involved?

It doesn't even exist.

 

[multitool]

Still, there's a male triple killer in the women's jail, amongst the general population some time soon if not immediately, and you guys still don't see a problem. There's literally nothing you won't defend.

What information do you have that this person is more of a threat to women than the women who are women killers?

 

[AuroraSaab]

Sometimes you really take the biscuit, Classic. You have no empathy for women whatsoever. You cheer on moving a male triple killer to a women's prison and then pretend you have empathy for the 3 victims and I don't.

Yes, there are violent women in prisons, including killers. They are women though. You cheerfully want to add men to the mix and pretend it's no different.

What information do you have that this person is more of a threat to women than the women who are women killers?

The fact that they belong to the class of people who comit 98% of sex crimes and something like 85% of violent crime. Statistically they are much more likely to be a danger.

If you want to go down the case by case route, it's really an argument for every space being mixed sexed until we can weed out the dangerous individuals. So all school changing rooms and showers should be mixed sex because most 15 year old boys aren't likely to be sex offenders......

 

[monkers]

What information do you have that this person is more of a threat to women than the women who are women killers?

Aurora has already said.

The actual risk assessment isn't available to the general public so I'll guess we'll never know

We just can't tell.

In the face of admitting that there is no information and it being impossible to tell, we have to follow her reasoning, that this trans woman despite having no vestigial testosterone, gametes, or genitals is dangerous. Therefore what she is actually saying is that unless we can prove any biological male is 'safe' then we must assume that 'he' is dangerous because it's in their DNA. Or maybe it's just that mothers bring up their sons to be dangerous to women? None of the above, well then it must be drag story time that causes it.

This is the rationality of all these conspiracy theory nutjobs.

 

[multitool]

Sometimes you really take the biscuit, Classic. You have no empathy for women whatsoever. You cheer on moving a male triple killer to a women's prison and then pretend you have empathy for the 3 victims and I don't.

Yes, there are violent women in prisons, including killers. They are women though. You cheerfully want to add men to the mix and pretend it's no different.



The fact that they belong to the class of people who comit 98% of sex crimes and something like 85% of violent crime. Statistically they are much more likely to be a danger.

If you want to go down the case by case route, it's really an argument for every space being mixed sexed until we can weed out the dangerous individuals. So all school changing rooms and showers should be mixed sex because most 15 year old boys aren't likely to be sex offenders......

Ah, reductio ad absurdam.

I don't understand why you use terms like "cheer on". Nobody is cheering anything on. In fact, I don't see anybody supporting the movement of this TW into female prison, overtly or tacitly.

 

[classic33]

Sometimes you really take the biscuit, Classic. You have no empathy for women whatsoever. You cheer on moving a male triple killer to a women's prison and then pretend you have empathy for the 3 victims and I don't.

Yes, there are violent women in prisons, including killers. They are women though. You cheerfully want to add men to the mix and pretend it's no different.



The fact that they belong to the class of people who comit 98% of sex crimes and something like 85% of violent crime. Statistically they are much more likely to be a danger.

If you want to go down the case by case route, it's really an argument for every space being mixed sexed until we can weed out the dangerous individuals. So all school changing rooms and showers should be mixed sex because most 15 year old boys aren't likely to be sex offenders......

She by legal definition, California state law, is a women. Again the same law says where she is to spend the remainder of her days. Not you.

Take a look in that mirror the next time you go past, and ask yourself where is the empathy, from yourself, for the families of the murder victims?
Your overriding concern isn't for them, and you have nothing for them, just the murderer. You sure got your priorities in the right order on this one.

 

[classic33]

Sometimes you really take the biscuit, Classic. You have no empathy for women whatsoever. You cheer on moving a male triple killer to a women's prison and then pretend you have empathy for the 3 victims and I don't.

Yes, there are violent women in prisons, including killers. They are women though. You cheerfully want to add men to the mix and pretend it's no different.



The fact that they belong to the class of people who comit 98% of sex crimes and something like 85% of violent crime. Statistically they are much more likely to be a danger.

If you want to go down the case by case route, it's really an argument for every space being mixed sexed until we can weed out the dangerous individuals. So all school changing rooms and showers should be mixed sex because most 15 year old boys aren't likely to be sex offenders......

As I said earlier, she wasn't moved there, she was sent there following her sentencing hearing on the 14th of this month.
The laws of the state were followed.

I'm also not pretending that you don't have any empathy for the victims, I'm saying you don't have any. Nor any for those left behind. Had it been another woman of the sort you approve off, the story wouldn't have even been mentioned here.

 

[multitool]

I can only conclude that Aurora is not really bothered about violence against women because her interest in it is depends purely on the gender/sex relationship of the perpetrator.

A bit like Tommy Robinson only being interested in paedophilia of the perpetrators are of Pakistani heritage.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Aurora has already said.

When I said We just don't know and We just can't tell, I was being sarcastic. There's no sensible person on the planet who doesn't know that a) being male, and b) being a triple killer isn't a safeguarding risk.

 

[multitool]

When I said We just don't know and We just can't tell, I was being sarcastic. There's no sensible person on the planet who doesn't know that a) being male, and b) being a triple killer isn't a safeguarding risk.

LOL.

On Death Row everyone is a safeguarding risk you plum.

 

[theclaud]

In the face of admitting that there is no information and it being impossible to tell, we have to follow her reasoning, that this trans woman despite having no vestigial testosterone, gametes, or genitals is dangerous.

To be fair to Aurora, I think the perception that she is dangerous has, on this occasion, very little little to do with her genitals and a lot to do with the nature of the crime for which she was sentenced. And also she's right about Classic having his own agenda here. None of these observations make a panic about Rivers' trans status helpful - as I understand it she transitioned some time ago and was sacked from her job in a high-profile discrimination case? There's no suspicion here that there's anything bogus about her transition, and a decision about where to house her is also (rightly) going to have to factor in risks to her from being housed in the male estate. Having read Wiki link about the CCWF (extract below), I once again suggest to Aurora that the presence or otherwise of Rivers in a given facility, whilst a legitimate question, is not really the stand-out problem with the incarceration of women in the US.

As of April 30, 2020, CCWF was incarcerating people at 131.7% of its design capacity, with 2,640 occupants. [...]

• In June 1991, an inmate died; some inmates "refused to report to their prison jobs" to protest the prison's medical care "which they said was linked to the death."[10] Later, an autopsy was conducted to show that the inmate "died of acute inflammation of the pancreas," not "an overdose of the tranquilizer Haldol" as some inmates believed.[11]
• Over 100 protesters outside the prison in January 1994 alleged that CCWF "failed to provide a medical specialist and educational programs to deal with HIV/AIDS-infected inmates," and that CCWF's healthcare providers "often ignore inmate ailments and provide little or no follow-up examinations."[12]
• An April 1995 class action lawsuit against CCWF and California Institution for Women "allege[d] that inmates suffer terribly and in some cases die because of inadequate medical care."[13] A 1997 settlement agreement led to two reports showing "improvements" in health care for female prisoners, but plaintiffs' lawyers claimed that "the changes deal[t] mostly with medical records, not actual care."[14]
• From July to November 1996, a private laboratory billed CCWF $161,000 "for thousands of medical tests, including Pap smears to detect cervical cancer, HIV tests, biopsies and urinalyses" even though the tests had never been used on the inmates.[15] At least six other prisons also used the laboratory.[15] Although the State of California closed the laboratory in 1997, a 2000 newspaper investigation found that there was "little evidence of any attempt by the California Department of Corrections to retest inmates or notify them that their test results were faked."[15]
• In 1999, an inmate with "hepatitis C and liver disease" died after being "prescribed anti-TB medications known to be toxic to patients with liver disease."[16] A wrongful-death lawsuit based on the case was "settled for $225,000" in 2002.[16]
• In the "month and a half" prior to December 20, 2000, seven CCWF inmates died.[17] Of these, four "apparently succumbed to chronic terminal illnesses," but an advocacy group claimed that the deaths "were precipitated by inadequate care."[17] The other three "died suddenly and unexpectedly," which led to autopsies being performed.[17] As a result, the three causes of death were determined to be "heart problems and natural causes," "a severe asthma attack and chok[ing] on her vomit after a routine strip search," and "clogged arteries and an enlarged heart."[18] Nevertheless, "relatives of the three women" and a physician from the University of California, San Francisco "who reviewed their deaths" held the opinion that "better health care could have saved their lives."[18]
• A hospice program was started at CCWF in the summer of 2000, but by mid-2001 was "seldom" used.[19] One possible explanation was a low amount of funding compared with the men's hospice at California Medical Facility; another possible explanation was CCWF's granting "compassionate releases to dying inmates who otherwise might enter the program."[19]
• In December 2003, seven CCWF inmates sued seven physicians and "several nurses" for "malpractice, negligence and unprofessional conduct."[20]
• In February 2007, the California Office of the Inspector General concluded "Numerous studies show that despite an annual cost of $36 million, the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation’s in-prison substance abuse treatment programs have little or no impact on recidivism."[21] The report specifically mentioned the "New Choice female felon program" at CCWF, for which "12-month recidivism rates... were lower for non-participants than for participants."[21]

 

[monkers]

To be fair to Aurora, I think the perception that she is dangerous has, on this occasion, very little little to do with her genitals and a lot to do with the nature of the crime for which she was sentenced. And also she's right about Classic having his own agenda here. None of these observations make a panic about Rivers' trans status helpful - as I understand it she transitioned some time ago and was sacked from her job in a high-profile discrimination case? There's no suspicion here that there's anything bogus about her transition, and a decision about where to house her is also (rightly) going to have to factor in risks to her from being housed in the male estate. Having read Wiki link about the CCWF (extract below), I once again suggest to Aurora that the presence or otherwise of Rivers in a given facility, whilst a legitimate question, is not really the stand-out problem with the incarceration of women in the US.

As of April 30, 2020, CCWF was incarcerating people at 131.7% of its design capacity, with 2,640 occupants. [...]

• In June 1991, an inmate died; some inmates "refused to report to their prison jobs" to protest the prison's medical care "which they said was linked to the death."[10] Later, an autopsy was conducted to show that the inmate "died of acute inflammation of the pancreas," not "an overdose of the tranquilizer Haldol" as some inmates believed.[11]
• Over 100 protesters outside the prison in January 1994 alleged that CCWF "failed to provide a medical specialist and educational programs to deal with HIV/AIDS-infected inmates," and that CCWF's healthcare providers "often ignore inmate ailments and provide little or no follow-up examinations."[12]
• An April 1995 class action lawsuit against CCWF and California Institution for Women "allege[d] that inmates suffer terribly and in some cases die because of inadequate medical care."[13] A 1997 settlement agreement led to two reports showing "improvements" in health care for female prisoners, but plaintiffs' lawyers claimed that "the changes deal[t] mostly with medical records, not actual care."[14]
• From July to November 1996, a private laboratory billed CCWF $161,000 "for thousands of medical tests, including Pap smears to detect cervical cancer, HIV tests, biopsies and urinalyses" even though the tests had never been used on the inmates.[15] At least six other prisons also used the laboratory.[15] Although the State of California closed the laboratory in 1997, a 2000 newspaper investigation found that there was "little evidence of any attempt by the California Department of Corrections to retest inmates or notify them that their test results were faked."[15]
• In 1999, an inmate with "hepatitis C and liver disease" died after being "prescribed anti-TB medications known to be toxic to patients with liver disease."[16] A wrongful-death lawsuit based on the case was "settled for $225,000" in 2002.[16]
• In the "month and a half" prior to December 20, 2000, seven CCWF inmates died.[17] Of these, four "apparently succumbed to chronic terminal illnesses," but an advocacy group claimed that the deaths "were precipitated by inadequate care."[17] The other three "died suddenly and unexpectedly," which led to autopsies being performed.[17] As a result, the three causes of death were determined to be "heart problems and natural causes," "a severe asthma attack and chok[ing] on her vomit after a routine strip search," and "clogged arteries and an enlarged heart."[18] Nevertheless, "relatives of the three women" and a physician from the University of California, San Francisco "who reviewed their deaths" held the opinion that "better health care could have saved their lives."[18]
• A hospice program was started at CCWF in the summer of 2000, but by mid-2001 was "seldom" used.[19] One possible explanation was a low amount of funding compared with the men's hospice at California Medical Facility; another possible explanation was CCWF's granting "compassionate releases to dying inmates who otherwise might enter the program."[19]
• In December 2003, seven CCWF inmates sued seven physicians and "several nurses" for "malpractice, negligence and unprofessional conduct."[20]
• In February 2007, the California Office of the Inspector General concluded "Numerous studies show that despite an annual cost of $36 million, the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation’s in-prison substance abuse treatment programs have little or no impact on recidivism."[21] The report specifically mentioned the "New Choice female felon program" at CCWF, for which "12-month recidivism rates... were lower for non-participants than for participants."[21]

There's something a bit disingenuous about Aurora worrying about the welfare of people who are killers when another killer is admitted. These killers happen to be women, they are not vulnerable innocent women in a safe space exactly. Being this case is in the USA, I'm not sure that campaigning for a redefinition of sex in the UK EqA is going to be much help. I think there are much more relevant issues to be worried about.

It's pretty clear to me at least, that Aurora is captured by propaganda. In the UK there just isn't the evidence to back up her claims about women being harmed by trans prisoners, something I'm pleased to hear. It's almost like Aurora is wanting and waiting for problems to happen just so that she can say 'I told you so'.