Gender again. Sorry!

[AndyRM]

She took the life of another person, to me that's murder.
That she stuffed cotton wool balls in the mouth and that the newborn had a damaged skull, indicative of a crush injury caused by a foot to the skull. Are signs that it wasn't accidental, according to those who testified in court.
She cleaned up the murder scene, put the baby in a black bag and got it placed outside, before going to bed as though nothing had happened.

And you say she shouldn't have been charged with murder!
You should have been on her defense team, you'd have got her off.

Ah, but what if legal guru spen was part of the prosecution? He'd probably come up with 97 reasons why the charge should stand.

 

[icowden]

I think the only person that should make decisions about a pregnancy is the woman carrying it. Who better?

Her doctor. The decision should be made by the woman and her doctor. There may be circumstances where the woman is not of sound mind for example.

 

[AuroraSaab]

She took the life of another person, to me that's murder.
And you say she shouldn't have been charged with murder!
You should have been on her defense team, you'd have got her off.

Men in women's prisons, sports, changing rooms .... you're fine with all that.
Scared 15 year old does something that will stay with them for the rest of their lives - and which could have been dealt with in an entirely different manner - and suddenly there's no nuance to the situation whatsoever.

I hope they appeal and yes I hope she 'gets off' because the charge was wrong to begin with.

 

[classic33]

Men in women's prisons, sports, changing rooms .... you're fine with all that.
Scared 15 year old does something that will stay with them for the rest of their lives - and which could have been dealt with in an entirely different manner - and suddenly there's no nuance to the situation whatsoever.

I hope they appeal and yes I hope she 'gets off' because the charge was wrong to begin with.

You agree with murder then. I don't, before you ask, especially when the victim is completely innocent of any wrong.

She took the time to clean a carpet, after she'd damaged the skull, placed the cotton wool in the baby's mouth and throat. Before disposing of the body in a bin liner, and getting someone else to put it out by the bin, so that she could go to bed.
Doesn't sound like the work of someone who panicked and acted on the spur of the moment.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I agree with compassion for kids who do a terrible thing - and it was a terrible thing - out of fear and shame. Your continued lack of compassion for girls and women is on brand though. Plenty of empathy for men who want to be in women's spaces, zero for scared teenage girls.

 

[classic33]

I agree with compassion for kids who do a terrible thing - and it was a terrible thing - out of fear and shame. Your continued lack of compassion for girls and women is on brand though. Plenty of empathy for men who want to be in women's spaces, zero for scared teenage girls.

You agree with the murder of the baby then?

How about Lorraine Thorpe. Same age at the time the murder was committed.

 

[mudsticks]

How did this discussion slide into abortion rights.??


Are all supposed 'wimmins issues' to be confined to just one thread now..??

Cos I mean yeah it's all pretty niche and inconsequential stuff compared with all the bloke chat concerning war, and US politics, and..
Starmer and... football and and.

'Women' and their concerns, can safely be cordoned off, and yes easily ignored, if the mood takes.

And if a woman has supposedly 'incorrect' views about one thing, she's clearly going to be wrong on pretty much every other topic - stands to reason really doesn't it??

We can really double down on her ..

Seems to me that theres far more censure here for not getting your feminism 'quite right' than there ever is for everyday 'Its just the water we swim in' patriachal sexist oppression of womankind, and their bodies. .

Bloody trans women stealing the right to have an abortion; it's stealing women's right I tell ya! We have to stop them! Aghhhhhhh!!!!

It's the thin end of the wedge; they'll be all kinds of men having abortions willy-nilly all over the place. Don't say Aurora didn't warn us!

Yeah right,.
Except Aurora didn't say or imply anything of the sort.

You can't leap on people for alleged 'misrepresentation' and dissect their every word and misplaced hyphen, for 'inaccuracies' on the one hand, and then come up with stuff like this.

There are legitimate concerns around certain very particular aspects of the 'trans debate' if it can be called that.

And yes some, or even a lot of that has been hijacked by rwnjs, and 'anti-woke' idiots to create a distraction away from much larger issues - but belittling and misrepresenting anyone who doesn't immediately agree with every aspect of everything you say, without reservation or denying anyone the right to question anything, even respectfully, doesn't actually lead to any progress or resolution.

Trans rights need upholding and protection - Definitely.
But so do women's rights.
And just occasionally those two intersect, and even conflict.

Wholesale rubbishing of someone else's motives, doesn't actually help, it just causes greater entrenchment, so that nobody is actually listening to anyone.

Particularly not listening to any womans' concerns - Oh look, same old same old.

If divisiveness and lack of communication is what you want, then I'd say you're going the right way about it.

I'd expect that sort of shoot from the supercilious - in love with himself, and his own supposed 'superior intelligence' type such as the Tool guy, but it seems rather counterproductive coming from someone who genuinely appears to g.a.s about advancing progress.

Don't see how it helps.

Oh well back to the VAT >>>

 

[AuroraSaab]

No, of course I'm not ok with murder. But given that what happened happened the correct response is to look at the circumstances and to consider whether a murder charge was appropriate. There are no winners in this situation.

How about Lorraine Thorpe. Same age at the time the murder was committed.

Yes, age 15 and in association with a 41 year old man she was party to the murder of 2 adults. Huge difference in these 2 cases.

 

[newfhouse]

Her doctor. The decision should be made by the woman and her doctor.

And if they disagree? Forced pregnancy?

There may be circumstances where the woman is not of sound mind for example.

Ah yes, I'd forgotten that hysterical, hormonal, and feckless women need to be protected from themselves.

(There will be occasional cases where a court will need to appoint someone to act in the best interests of someone that lacks capacity, but I'm not convinced we should distort the general policy because of that.)

 

[newfhouse]

How did this discussion slide into abortion rights.??

They're intersectional issues. After going round the sane circle so many times it's not surprising (and maybe welcome) that the thread will widen in scope.

 

[mudsticks]

And if they disagree? Forced pregnancy?


Ah yes, I'd forgotten that hysterical, hormonal, and feckless women need to be protected from themselves.

(There will be occasional cases where a court will need to appoint someone to act in the best interests of someone that lacks capacity, but I'm not convinced we should distort the general policy because of that.)

You actually need two doctors to approve a termination.

Abortion is still not technically legal even in the UK. It is 'permitted' in certain circumstances.

The two doctors thing might be understandable, were that was all to do with ensuring that there was no coercion of the pregnant woman going on.

And yes that does happen, just as some women are not infrequently forced / coerced to continue with a pregnancy against their will, others are compelled to terminate by partners or family.

But I don't get the impression that safeguarding of the woman is the uppermost concern.

The law as it stands is still around whether or not she can demonstrate significant 'enough' threats to her physical or psychological welfare from continuing the pregnancy to 'justify' terminating it.

So basically our actual, autonomous 'right to choose' is still not fully enshrined in law.

 

[mudsticks]

They're intersectional issues. After going round the sane circle so many times it's not surprising (and maybe welcome) that the thread will widen in scope.

How do abortion rights intersect with trans-rights??

This is possibly one situation where they really don't very much, if at all ...

You could start another thread, as it's really a separate issue altogether.

 

[AuroraSaab]

How did this discussion slide into abortion rights.??

Because Claud and others seem to be of the view that if you aren't 100% on board with gender ideology then the nasty right wing men will take away your abortion rights.

This is a protection racket argument which requires women to sign up to a shed load of stuff they don't believe out of fear of losing what they already have. It also relies on the trope that left wing men care more about women's rights than right wing men do. They don't.

Being the 'wrong sort of feminist' is just the traditional left wing purity spiral where nothing but complete and utterly submission to the cause is acceptable and plurality of opinion is verboten. This ideological feminism is purer and tidier than the messy, practical, body-based alternative because it takes the pesky, troublesome female body out of feminism altogether. It's all just gender rights now.

 

[newfhouse]

How do abortion rights intersect with trans-rights??

The same political players are attacking both for their own malign purposes.

 

[mudsticks]

The same political players are attacking both for their own malign purposes.

Well yes, but you could say that about any subject of the 'culture wars' we don't lump them all together as one topic though..