Gender again. Sorry!

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monkers

Legendary Member
I've been misgendered loads of time. I don't give a toss because my sense of self isn't based on self-identifying as female. I simply am one.

Except that you will give a toss won't you when you get marched out of the ladies for being mistaken for a trans woman and 'looking like a predator'.

I think this is your real fear isn't it? Having been misgendered you are afraid of being identified as a trans woman.
 
Seems unlikely. People make estimates of someone's sex in a fraction of a second, then reassess pretty quickly. I'm sure we've all mistaken someone for the opposite sex then realised our mistake, even if only mentally. I've never been challenged in a toilet or a changing room. Neither have any of my shorter haired, taller, more non conforming friends. Funnily enough I've never had to grow my hair, wear a skirt, or speak in a higher pitch to avoid it either. If I was I'd just explain. It wouldn't bother me. Why would it?

Of course in the past women could be almost 100% certain that everyone in a women's space or service was actually a woman. Unfortunately that's no longer the case.

By the way, it's nothing to do with 'looking like a predator'. It's to do with being male. You know that though.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
Seems unlikely. People make estimates of someone's sex in a fraction of a second, then reassess pretty quickly. I'm sure we've all mistaken someone for the opposite sex then realised our mistake, even if only mentally. I've never been challenged in a toilet or a changing room. Neither have any of my shorter haired, taller, more non conforming friends. Funnily enough I've never had to grow my hair, wear a skirt, or speak in a higher pitch to avoid it either. If I was I'd just explain. It wouldn't bother me. Why would it?

Of course in the past women could be almost 100% certain that everyone in a women's space or service was actually a woman. Unfortunately that's no longer the case.

By the way, it's nothing to do with 'looking like a predator'. It's to do with being male. You know that though.

I don't accept that. What I know though is that the whole argument is a construct built around bigotry.
 
Seems unlikely. People make estimates of someone's sex in a fraction of a second, then reassess pretty quickly. I'm sure we've all mistaken someone for the opposite sex then realised our mistake, even if only mentally. I've never been challenged in a toilet or a changing room. Neither have any of my shorter haired, taller, more non conforming friends. Funnily enough I've never had to grow my hair, wear a skirt, or speak in a higher pitch to avoid it either. If I was I'd just explain. It wouldn't bother me. Why would it?

Of course in the past women could be almost 100% certain that everyone in a women's space or service was actually a woman. Unfortunately that's no longer the case.

By the way, it's nothing to do with 'looking like a predator'. It's to do with being male. You know that though.
Not all predators are male though, as you well know.
 

icowden

Legendary Member
At least on you. I'm disappointed because I had some respect for your views at one point, but lately I've seen you post some pretty transphobic stuff and now I see you standing up for bigotry under the guise of 'normal people'. That's a shame.

You haven't seen me post either. Unless your definition of transphobic is not agreeing with everything you say. And you didn't see me stand up for bigotry. What I pointed out is that most people are not bigots.

A bigot:-
a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

Most people will not be antagonistic towards other people whether they are men, women, transmen, transwomen or whatever. It does not make a person a bigot to have concerns about the pro-trans movement or to think that we should be reconsidering cosmetic interventions on young children.

Toilets are an odd thing. I was in the M&M store in London a little while back and needed the loo. The ladies was out of action with a huge queue waiting for the accessible toilet. I walked into the men's and did my business. I then suggested to the queue that there were no actual men in the men's toilet so they might as well use the cubicles in there. They did. To a man, the only difference between the men's and the ladies is urinals. In the discussion about trans they are a pointless red herring for many of the reasons you have already pointed out (to wit, unless you are going to install a DNA tester, then anyone can use either toilet). I have also in the past used the ladies toilet when my daughters were little as it was often where the baby changing table was. I think I was challenged once. I replied "she's a girl - she gets to use the girls toilet".

And on the recurring discussion about the Gender Incongruence not being a mental health diagnosis, it did strike me that the ICD11 change is just a cosmetic sticking plaster which makes little sense. If you do have a Gender Incongruence diagnosis a Clinical Gynaecologist or Sexual Health Nurse is not going to help you. You will be referred to a specialist mental health trust such as Tavistock and Portman where you will be seen by specialist mental health staff such as Clinical Psychologists and Clinical Psychiatrists. That's about as mental health as it gets. Classifying the diagnosis as sexual health is a bit of a pointless diversion IMHO.
 
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multitool

Guest
 

monkers

Legendary Member
You haven't seen me post either. Unless your definition of transphobic is not agreeing with everything you say. And you didn't see me stand up for bigotry. What I pointed out is that most people are not bigots.

A bigot:-


Most people will not be antagonistic towards other people whether they are men, women, transmen, transwomen or whatever. It does not make a person a bigot to have concerns about the pro-trans movement or to think that we should be reconsidering cosmetic interventions on young children.

Toilets are an odd thing. I was in the M&M store in London a little while back and needed the loo. The ladies was out of action with a huge queue waiting for the accessible toilet. I walked into the men's and did my business. I then suggested to the queue that there were no actual men in the men's toilet so they might as well use the cubicles in there. They did. To a man, the only difference between the men's and the ladies is urinals. In the discussion about trans they are a pointless red herring for many of the reasons you have already pointed out (to wit, unless you are going to install a DNA tester, then anyone can use either toilet). I have also in the past used the ladies toilet when my daughters were little as it was often where the baby changing table was. I think I was challenged once. I replied "she's a girl - she gets to use the girls toilet".

And on the recurring discussion about the Gender Incongruence not being a mental health diagnosis, it did strike me that the ICD11 change is just a cosmetic sticking plaster which makes little sense. If you do have a Gender Incongruence diagnosis a Clinical Gynaecologist or Sexual Health Nurse is not going to help you. You will be referred to a specialist mental health trust such as Tavistock and Portman where you will be seen by specialist mental health staff such as Clinical Psychologists and Clinical Psychiatrists. That's about as mental health as it gets. Classifying the diagnosis as sexual health is a bit of a pointless diversion IMHO.

I didn't say most people are bigots. But when a poster posts a statement claiming that most people agree, and then you turn up suggesting that 'normal people' agree, then I see the problem.

This has been preceded by various comments of your's, such as this one ...

Yes. My thinking is that I am not sure how much better it sounds to have a diagnosed sexual condition over a diagnosed mental health condition. Both of these things would seem to contradict the notion that somehow transgender is innate.

This comment was especially telling of your thinking, and I was disappointed when I read it.

First of transgender is not innate - gender identity is innate. Gender identity is not a notion. Gender incongruence is the condition stated by the WHO and the NHS and so many others of a mismatch between sexual identity and gender identity of a person. It is more than just 'a feeling'.

It is not a mental health condition, not a sexually transmitted disease, or any other thing. I understand that the SMEGHEAD codes list it so, but that does not justify the comments you have made.

You've expressed bigoty and now you are posting to defend another bigot.

Trans people have rights to their lives. Cis people 'normal people' have no rights to bigotry.
 

multitool

Guest
At least on you. I'm disappointed because I had some respect for your views at one point, but lately I've seen you post some pretty transphobic stuff and now I see you standing up for bigotry under the guise of 'normal people'. That's a shame.

With you on this about icow.

I think if both he and his flunky were to go back to the start of their involvement in this topic they will see that they have gone from "just asking questions" about women's spaces to flat out denialism of trans existence.
 
This is what happens when people fan the flames of hatred of minorities

It's an example of male violence. Which is one of the reasons why we allow men to be excluded from certain spaces and services intended for women in the first place.

This is the age old sexist trope that women cannot talk about their specific needs or rights in case it makes violent men do something terrible. Once again women are responsible for what men do. It's just 'Look what you made me do' in another form. It's 'Look what you made him do'.

Funnily enough I've never seen you show any concern about Andrew Tate or the incel movement and how they fan the flames of hatred of women. Actually, you mentioned him once in passing.
 
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