Gender again. Sorry!
- Thread starter theclaud
- Start date
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AuroraSaab
Squire
And in certain situations a huge factor in that risk assessment is sex. No men are banned but their sex is taken into account in certain circumstances. Unlike you claim, nobody on here has called for blanket bans on men, only that when appropriate sex is taken into account.
And the sex of the prisoner is assessment no 1, then age. Otherwise jails wouldn't be separated by sex or age at all.
Karen White was risk assessed. The board just decided they were fine to be in a women's jail. It should have gone to a higher board, though the outcome might not have been different because the assessment protocol for trans prisoners was written in consultation with a consultant from trans lobby group Gendered Intelligence. Women prisoners weren't consulted on the policy.
Nothing to do with privatisation. It was to do with a change in policy after lobbying by trans groups. Prior to the policy change you had to have had surgery.
classic33
Me
You can provide a link to the risk assessment on White. Most are never made public, for very obvious reasons.
Why would they consult the prison population on what they want? They're in there for a reason, normally at the order of a judge or magistrate.
*You are the only one constantly saying "it's not just some men, it's all men that are the problem".
monkers
Legendary Member
Prison Service apologise for "mistakes" which allowed transgender sex attacker to prey on women in prison
The Transgender Case Board which usually decide where transgender prisoners should live did not consider Karen White's case.Why do you insist on making stuff up in every post.
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AuroraSaab
Squire
It did but it would have been the Initial Local Transgender Case Board. White could have been referred to the Complex Case Board but wasn't. It was human error that they weren't referred but a failing in regulatory safeguarding that a male in a women's prison was ever an option. The higher board could have made the same 'human error'.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...ng-offender-attacked-again-transgender-prison
I could ask why you insist with this charade that some men are special and different from other men. Out of desperation you try to prove that Karen White is some sort of unique case. They aren't. They are a run of the mill persistant male sex offender.
Karen White was a risk to women in the confined circumstances of a women's prison because they are male, not because they are transgender. A GRC, surgery, or 'living as a woman' wouldn't have changed that risk. The case by case scenario you favour is simply an attempt to distract from that obvious fact.
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monkers
Legendary Member
Charade?
It's the law. Don't you understand? You're even not in charge of your own senses, let alone the country.
AuroraSaab
Squire
It's the law that some men are different from other men? I think you are mistaking that for the fact that UK law allows that in certain limited circumstances men can be treated as though they were women. They remain men of course. They're not different from other men.
monkers
Legendary Member
No. It's the law that trans women with a GRC are women. It says so on their birth certificates just like your's and mine.
It's a simple fact that the simplest of minds manage to assimilate - even mine.
Shame really because in the previous post you almost said something sensible. I'll come to that later.
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Bromptonaut
Rohan Man
- Location
- Bugbrooke, Northants
Well sort of, up to a point....
A trans woman with a GRC is a woman who can, in a few very limited circumstances, be treated differently to how she would be if she's been born as a woman.
Aside from those almost vanishingly rare instances they are to pretty much all practical intents and purposes women and as such no different from you, @monkers or by daughter.
monkers
Legendary Member
You really are having a lovely time being abusive about my niece aren't you? She is a far nicer person than you.
monkers
Legendary Member
errrrrrr what? Which is it?
Flip flops are supposed to worn on the feet, rather than be used as a typing aid. If all else fails read the instructions.
monkers
Legendary Member
A note here for sensible readers.
Karen White aka Stephen Wood was placed in a women's prison in 2017. Wood was legally male, and under the law and prison policy would ordinarily have been allocated to a male prison.
Wood's history was that he had occasionally been known to cross-dress, but did not have the protected characteristic of 'gender reassignment' under the Equality Act. Wood had not formally changed his name to Karen White.
My reading of various reports is that Wood's GP was not aware of any intention to transition. Wood had therefore no record of being trans, had not been taking hormones, or had any form of surgery.
The ordinary event under the law, and under prison rules at that time was that Stephen Wood should have been allocated to a male prison. Stephen Wood would then would have the opportunity to declare himself transgender and wishing to be placed in a female prison. This would have required Wood to be assessed by the Local Transgender Case Board for risk assessment. Part of the assessment would be to consider previous offending. This process was not followed.
Should the LTCB at the male prison have determined that White should be moved to a female prison then they would have to refer the case to a Complex case board to be heard under the Ministry for Justice before the prisoner could be moved to a female prison.
Women at the prison where Wood was allocated were very aware of him as a predator. The press attention at the time was concerned with what they knew of his behaviour in prison. However there were more cases of abuse than the press reported. It is known that four women were assaulted over a period of months with the authorities aware. Even then the LTCB did not meet to reconsider or refer to the complex case board. Wood remained free to be able to mix with other prisoners.
The prison itself is under the overall management of HMPP, however some areas for education and activities were operated by contractors. These were reported to be understaffed and criticized on that basis.
These are major failures, which later the prison service acknowledged and apologised for.
As far as the prisoners themselves were concerned, alarm had spread before the arrival of Wood, because in their assessment, Wood was not genuinely a trans women but a fake. They correctly feared for their safety.
Cheryle Kempton, who was a prisoner in the prison at that time, waived her right to anonymity, telling her story to the press. She describes Wood's trans status as fake.
Here the story is recounted by The Law Society (Ireland)
https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/t...ives-account-of-sex-assault-by-trans-prisoner
Karen White aka Stephen Wood was placed in a women's prison in 2017. Wood was legally male, and under the law and prison policy would ordinarily have been allocated to a male prison.
Wood's history was that he had occasionally been known to cross-dress, but did not have the protected characteristic of 'gender reassignment' under the Equality Act. Wood had not formally changed his name to Karen White.
My reading of various reports is that Wood's GP was not aware of any intention to transition. Wood had therefore no record of being trans, had not been taking hormones, or had any form of surgery.
The ordinary event under the law, and under prison rules at that time was that Stephen Wood should have been allocated to a male prison. Stephen Wood would then would have the opportunity to declare himself transgender and wishing to be placed in a female prison. This would have required Wood to be assessed by the Local Transgender Case Board for risk assessment. Part of the assessment would be to consider previous offending. This process was not followed.
Should the LTCB at the male prison have determined that White should be moved to a female prison then they would have to refer the case to a Complex case board to be heard under the Ministry for Justice before the prisoner could be moved to a female prison.
Women at the prison where Wood was allocated were very aware of him as a predator. The press attention at the time was concerned with what they knew of his behaviour in prison. However there were more cases of abuse than the press reported. It is known that four women were assaulted over a period of months with the authorities aware. Even then the LTCB did not meet to reconsider or refer to the complex case board. Wood remained free to be able to mix with other prisoners.
The prison itself is under the overall management of HMPP, however some areas for education and activities were operated by contractors. These were reported to be understaffed and criticized on that basis.
These are major failures, which later the prison service acknowledged and apologised for.
As far as the prisoners themselves were concerned, alarm had spread before the arrival of Wood, because in their assessment, Wood was not genuinely a trans women but a fake. They correctly feared for their safety.
Cheryle Kempton, who was a prisoner in the prison at that time, waived her right to anonymity, telling her story to the press. She describes Wood's trans status as fake.
Here the story is recounted by The Law Society (Ireland)
https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/t...ives-account-of-sex-assault-by-trans-prisoner
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AuroraSaab
Squire
Saying men remain men regardless of how they identify or what certificate they hold isn't being abusive to any particular transwoman. The fact that you constantly frame it as such is another aspect of your special emotional pleading.
And now you're trying the 'Karen White wasn't really trans' angle. I don't doubt that KW was just a man with a fetish. But if you are going to claim that people are who they say they are, and that there's no diagnosis for being trans, then by that metric KW is a transwoman. And if they moved to Scotland and applied for a new style GRC they would have been given one.
And when they are released from Armley jail Karen will be free to use women's toilets and changing rooms, alongside Bromptonaut's daughter, granddaughters if he has any, and any other woman or girl, because by your reckoning they are female and no-one should stop them.
Care to explain how women and girls can work out who is 'genuinely trans' and who is a man with a fetish?
And now you're trying the 'Karen White wasn't really trans' angle. I don't doubt that KW was just a man with a fetish. But if you are going to claim that people are who they say they are, and that there's no diagnosis for being trans, then by that metric KW is a transwoman. And if they moved to Scotland and applied for a new style GRC they would have been given one.
And when they are released from Armley jail Karen will be free to use women's toilets and changing rooms, alongside Bromptonaut's daughter, granddaughters if he has any, and any other woman or girl, because by your reckoning they are female and no-one should stop them.
Care to explain how women and girls can work out who is 'genuinely trans' and who is a man with a fetish?
Ian H
Legendary Member
How have they managed up to now?
