Gender again. Sorry!

[classic33]

Saying men remain men regardless of how they identify or what certificate they hold isn't being abusive to any particular transwoman. The fact that you constantly frame it as such is another aspect of your special emotional pleading.

And now you're trying the 'Karen White wasn't really trans' angle. I don't doubt that KW was just a man with a fetish. But if you are going to claim that people are who they say they are, and that there's no diagnosis for being trans, then by that metric KW is a transwoman. And if they moved to Scotland and applied for a new style GRC they would have been given one.

And when they are released from Armley jail Karen will be free to use women's toilets and changing rooms, alongside Bromptonaut's daughter, granddaughters if he has any, and any other woman or girl, because by your reckoning they are female and no-one should stop them.

Care to explain how women and girls can work out who is 'genuinely trans' and who is a man with a fetish?

She's serving a life sentence, when will she be released from Armley Prison?

 

[multitool]

Care to explain how women and girls can work out who is 'genuinely trans' and who is a man with a fetish?

How have they managed up to now?

Generally by never ever having to

 

[AuroraSaab]

How have they managed up to now?

They haven't needed to as service providers have enforced the allowed exemptions of the Equality Act. The push to include transwomen in women's single sex spaces and services is a fairly recent thing.

Do you have any tips, Ian, as to how women can tell if the male body in the their showers after swimming is a genuine transwoman or a man with a fetish? Or should the women and girls just look away as Monkers suggests, and not go swimming again if they aren't prepared to put up with it?

 

[classic33]

They haven't needed to as service providers have enforced the allowed exemptions of the Equality Act. The push to include transwomen in women's single sex spaces and services is a fairly recent thing.

Do you have any tips, Ian, as to how women can tell if the male body in the their showers after swimming is a genuine transwoman or a man with a fetish? Or should the women and girls just look away as Monkers suggests, and not go swimming again if they aren't prepared to put up with it?

Where has that last part been suggested, on here?

 

[AuroraSaab]

Therefore, if one wishes to avoid seeing a penis, one either has to avoid those areas where they are most likely to deal with it, or remember that under the law their have to just be bit more mature and have the facility to deal with it by looking away.

There is no right to have a facility where you can expect to get naked with others present and police who may be there. There is no such women's rights - this is just a fantasy.

Posted on the 10th June if you want to check.

Would this be your view, Classic? That women and girls have no right to expect single sex changing rooms, showers, saunas etc? And if there is a naked male body present, girls and women should just look away?

I don't think that is acceptable. I think males have a right to privacy and dignity too. Single sex spaces give them this too.

 

[classic33]

Posted on the 10th June if you want to check.

Would this be your view, Classic? That women and girls have no right to expect single sex changing rooms, showers, saunas etc? And if there is a naked male body present, girls and women should just look away?

I don't think that is acceptable. I think males have a right to privacy and dignity too. Single sex spaces give them this too.

Another heavily edited post.

Please provide the answer for the question asked. Not sidestepping the question.

 

[AuroraSaab]

The answer is Monkers and the post is not heavily edited. 10th June. Go look it up if you can spare the time off from desperately trying to prove that women are just as bad as men when it comes to sex crimes and violence.

 

[classic33]

The answer is Monkers and the post is not heavily edited. 10th June. Go look it up if you can spare the time off from desperately trying to prove that women are just as bad as men when it comes to sex crimes and violence.

It's your post that's been heavily edited, making my initial reply seem as though I'd not given a straight answer to the points you made. And I did check, I'm not relying on what you post, when it comes to selective quoting.

I don't need to desperately try to prove women are just as bad as men. You're posts are doing that. I've to check what you post, seldom do you give a link when you post a screenshot/picture to the source. Thereby cherry picking of figures, by yourself, is rife. And only tells a selective part of the picture/story.

 

[monkers]

Posted on the 10th June if you want to check.

Would this be your view, Classic? That women and girls have no right to expect single sex changing rooms, showers, saunas etc? And if there is a naked male body present, girls and women should just look away?

I don't think that is acceptable. I think males have a right to privacy and dignity too. Single sex spaces give them this too.

Oh I don't deny that I said it, and it remains true.

You are always claiming that something or other is 'a right' and when I point out that you are making stuff up, you are flabbergasted.

Nudity is not in itself a crime. Therefore women have no right not to see a penis, not even us gay ones. Women have a right to feel and say that they want to see a penis, but that is not the same thing.

You keep making it personal because you don't like to hear the truth.

Don't want to hear the truth; rarely speak the truth.

You can't stomach the fact that the law says that trans women with a GRC are women - but it's a truth that you can't bear to hear, so you just keep on pretending the law doesn't exist.

Trans women with a GRC are women under that law - that you don't like it is immaterial. You just need to try harder at being an adult.

 

[monkers]

I don't think that is acceptable. I think males have a right to privacy and dignity too. Single sex spaces give them this too.

Then stick to saying just that instead of pretending that there's a right. Rights are always written down. If you can't find it written down, well then it's not a right, it's a whinge. There's no law against whinging, though not everybody wants to hear it.

 

[monkers]

Women have a right to feel and say that they **** want to see a penis, but that is not the same thing.

***** insert don't.

I was tired. I goofed.

 

[mudsticks]

Then stick to saying just that instead of pretending that there's a right. Rights are always written down. If you can't find it written down, well then it's not a right, it's a whinge. There's no law against whinging, though not everybody wants to hear it.

And there's also no law against challenging, questioning or even trying to get changed laws that are written down, if they are felt to be wrong in some way.

That's what many of us do already ..

You might call that 'whinging'

It's my belief that @AuroraSaab is using the word 'right' in this context more coloquially.
She may want to put me right (🙄) on that.

It's not just about whether women do or don't want to see penises in whatever state they may be .

It's about their feeling as comfortable, and safe in certain circumstances, as they reasonably can.
eg in changing rooms, or say rape crisis centres.

It's about the fact that many many women feel uncomfortable being in a state of semi or full undress, or other state of vulnerability around male bodied people.

And they feel that for many reasons.

Many women have suffered trauma at the hands of male bodied people.

Many women have been brought up - indeed admonished and even victim blamed if they've done otherwise - to be extremely careful of their appearance and behaviour around male bodied people.

How many times have we heard variations on 'She was asking for it, doing, wearing, being like that' When a woman has been harassed, assaulted, or in some cases killed by male bodied people, who clearly have no respect for the bodies, or bodily autonomy of women.

And all this conditioning or education is supposed to be undone overnight??
Because threat from (some 🙄) male bodied people has gone away??


Because we as liberalised western women who do have something approaching bodily autonomy, and are at low (but not no) risk of assault.

Women are still getting harassed, assaulted, and killed on a daily based by male bodied people.

Of course those male bodied people doing those things are very rarely transwomen, transwomen are 'caught up in this' largely through no fault of their own.


But to diminish and belittle (as bigoted) many women's concerns about the preservation of their safe spaces (whether they exist as a legal 'right' or not) is to diminish, and belittle the existence of not just women's trauma experienced at the hands of male bodied people now, but also that handed down (thanks patriachy) by the generations of violence, control, and exploitation.

I personally don't care if there are men in changing rooms, I go to the beach I get all my kit off, alongside men who do the same.

I do 'trad male' stuff for both work and leisure probs far more 'gnarly' muscular and adventurous even, than most of the guys on here.

But that doesn't stop me having empathy and understanding for women whose lives look a whole lot different, and are far more restricted than mine.

Just calling a bigot, any woman who feels disquiet about male bodied people (men or trans women) being in her space, doesn't help anything.

 

[monkers]

And there's also no law against challenging, questioning or even trying to get changed laws that are written down, if they are felt to be wrong in some way.

I'd already said that, so I'm not going to bother reading what is invariably your standard rant- you never really post anything else do you.

 

[mudsticks]

I'd already said that, so I'm not going to bother reading what is invariably your standard rant- you never really post anything else do you.

And yet you expect people to read your posts (aka standard rants?)
Great listening skills there Monkers - top marks on a 'discussion' forum.

How can you know what it contains if you don't read it. ??

 

[monkers]

And yet you expect people to read your posts (aka standard rants?)
Great listening skills there Monkers - top marks on a 'discussion' forum.

How can you know what it contains if you don't read it. ??

I don't 'expect' any one to read anything I write - I'm happy that people exercise the prerogative.

I already know what your post will say, because it'll be the Mudsticks rant with women spelt 'wimmin' and other poorly considered argument.

The fact is that there are women who claim that UK etiquette somehow trumps law that flows from international rights - it doesn't matter how many tiny feet are stamped or with what frequency it changes nothing.

Some women's rights were hard won - they were hard won by serious women understanding the law and campaigning against it. They did not want privilege, they wanted equality. We are not quite there yet. I'm serious about equality, but equality is not achieved by demanding the social exclusion of others, it's achieved by campaigning for equality for all. That's what feminism is. Campaigning for exclusion of people by difference is a kind of fascism. I'll never submit to it.

When someone refuses to recognise the law and pretends that they have the right to interpret law the way that they want, they are an idiot.

If I go swimming I prefer a private booth, if there's not one available, then I behave like an adult. If I choose to change instead in a communal area then I have to respect others using the area that have equal entitlement. Otherwise I can wait, go to another pool, or choose a different activity. We don't always get what we would like, and dealing with it is being an adult.

The adult in me makes me accept the consequences of my choices. I don't pretend that my discomfort trumps the actual legal rights of others. None of this prevents me from saying that changing in front of others is less comfortable than changing in a private space. None of this means that women can say what makes them more or less comfortable, but frankly if women can't stop themselves from incessant lying, and abusing people because they can't respect the hard won legal rights of others, then they need to be told to 'shut the fark up'.