multitool
Guest
If you had any idea just how stupid you look, you'd stop.
Gender again. Sorry!
- Thread starter theclaud
- Start date
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If you had any idea just how stupid you look, you'd stop.
AuroraSaab
Squire
I think all demographics should be able to have their own spaces and services. Black student groups shouldn't have to admit white students. Social clubs for the disabled shouldn't have to admit able bodied people. Services set up for trans people shouldn't have to cater for non trans people.
We all know this is fair and necessary. But when it comes to women's single sex spaces and services suddenly it's 'nuanced' or 'complicated'. Funny how this nuanced approach almost always disadvantages women and advantages men.
We all know this is fair and necessary. But when it comes to women's single sex spaces and services suddenly it's 'nuanced' or 'complicated'. Funny how this nuanced approach almost always disadvantages women and advantages men.
D
Deleted member 159
Guest
After 6959 posts your devilishly cunning trap has finally exposed the truth.
Pleased you liked it
monkers
Legendary Member
Yes. I am that 'false Etruscan'.
winjim
Welcome yourself into the new modern crisis
Astonishingly this is from page 74 of this thread, when I had already essentially given up on it and just posted this to ease my own frustration. Nearly 400 pages later...
I don't actually disagree that there might be circumstances in which cis women might need their own spaces and facilities but black and disabled people are terrible examples to use and only serve to undermine your point. Both groups are social constructs with self identification. You can't objectively define who is black or who is disabled. So yeah, all of those cases are nuanced.
D
Deleted member 159
Guest
Might, what like toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards, women's refuge's.
These are essential, not a whimsical choice.
AuroraSaab
Squire
Even if race and disability are social constructs, they exist in the world and have effects. You wouldn't dismiss the effects of racism as unimportant because it's based on a social construct. Further just because categories have fuzzy edges does not mean they are not meaningful classifications.
Funnily enough these socially constructed rather fuzzy categories are treated with quite a bit more respect than the material reality of biological categories.
When someone self-identifies as black to gain a scholarship or job people are outraged because it disadvantages black people. When someone pretends to be disabled to gain advantage it's met with disdain because it disadvantages disabled people. When a man self-identifies as a woman and demands access to women's spaces and services .... people fall over themselves to justify it as a perfectly reasonable request.
Funnily enough these socially constructed rather fuzzy categories are treated with quite a bit more respect than the material reality of biological categories.
When someone self-identifies as black to gain a scholarship or job people are outraged because it disadvantages black people. When someone pretends to be disabled to gain advantage it's met with disdain because it disadvantages disabled people. When a man self-identifies as a woman and demands access to women's spaces and services .... people fall over themselves to justify it as a perfectly reasonable request.
winjim
Welcome yourself into the new modern crisis
classic33
Me
Are you now equating a disability as an advantage, and that anyone "pretends to be disabled" are doing so just to gain access to disabled spaces?
Disabled toilets, we're back to them again, are unisex and are often the only one's that are left open for anyone to use. Men and women, able bodied and disabled.
AuroraSaab
Squire
What would they be exactly though? Everybody on here is 'It's nuanced' but nobody seems to want to say when women can reasonably have single sex spaces and services and when they can't. Except for the ones who think they shouldn't have them at all obvs.
No. I said if someone self-identified as disabled does that disadvantage disabled people? I would say it does.
No, we aren't. Disabled toilets aren't unisex. They are single occupancy. There aren't both sexes in them at once. Able bodied people shouldn't use them unless it's absolutely necessary.
classic33
Me
1) No you didn't, your words were "When someone pretends to be disabled to gain advantage".
And your moan throughout these threads has been "dignity and privacy" for the group concerned. Only you don't apply this to any other group. You'll use them, to try and make a point, but there any empathy ends if it was there in the first place.
2) Like it or not, they are unisex. You'll have trouble seeing seperate disabled toilets for men and women. They're large enough inside to allow a helper in at the same time.
winjim
Welcome yourself into the new modern crisis
I don't know, there are undoubtedly people with better qualifications and experience than me who can offer more considered opinions than I could. I'd rather defer to experts.
You did say 'pretend' which is not synonymous with self ID. But when it comes to disability I think self ID can be fluid. For example I consider myself disabled in some contexts but not in others, largely dependent on the environment.
Slight tangential disagree on that as not all disabilities are physical and I think we should think of such facilities as 'accessible'. They're often used by families and have the changing table in there anyway. But that's not important for this discussion.
AuroraSaab
Squire
You're the one advocating for men in women's prisons. I'm not sure you're in a position to lecture me on empathy. I could list you a load of times when people have pretended to be disabled to gain advantage but you can google it yourself if you think it never happens. Try the Spanish Paralympics basketball team for starters. Is self ID in that situation ok?
It's not unisex when only one person (or one and a carer) can use them at once. Surely you can see the difference between being in a toilet or changing room with a stranger of the opposite sex and being in one with a carer you know well - who will often be the same sex - helping you use a disabled toilet?
classic33
Me
If the law says they are a woman, then they go where the law says they should. With due processing carried out along the way.
I know of a few people that have said they have a disability, in order not to have to do something or go somewhere.
Disabled toilets can be used by men and women, making them unisex/gender neutral.
AuroraSaab
Squire
This is just dodging the issue surely. Who do you consider experts on whether women and girls need single sex services and spaces? Can you honestly not form an opinion on whether women who have been raped are reasonable or unreasonable in wanting to exclude male bodied people from a support group? Or whether a woman or girl can reasonably ask only for a same sex carer (and men of course too)?
I agree. I wouldn't challenge anybody who used a disabled loo because their need might be related to a heart condition or something else unseen. Able bodied was the wrong phrase. I would hope though that people would respect that those separate facilities are necessary and not use them if they don't need to.
