Gender again. Sorry!

[multitool]

The protesters, posters, and placards were there before the SNP MP's arrived to stand at the front for their photo op. I could post the photos but you wouldn't believe me.

This is going to get silly.

If the MSPs agreed with the sentiments on the placard behind them then they wouldn't have tweeted a condemnation.

The fact is these kind of sentiments aren't new or unusual. It's par for the course at any demo involving transactivists. They aren't 'outliers'.

I'm sure they arent unusual, along with some pretty intemperate vocalised thoughts. Its a heated issue and you get stupid people in all walks of life. "Outlier" is generally accepted to mean 0.3%. If there were fewer than 300 people at the rally and this was the sole placard encouraging death then it was an outlier.

The Internet and meatspace is awash with anti-trans statements. Bad-skinned, hate-mongering, redneck, comedy drag act* Posie Parker, finds herself regularly appearing alongside people labelling trans people as "pedophiles" (sic) and calling for their eradication.

*with full acknowledgement to TC for this gem.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Going down the 'both sides' route then, despite the fact that the vitriol and death threats pretty much go in one direction only between feminists and transactivists.

Can you find me a gender critical feminist calling for trans people to be beheaded? Not sure even Kellie Jay Keen has done that. I can find you a dozen 'Kill Terfs' type photos though.

And what on earth has her skin got to do with anything? Why is her appearance even relevant?

It's utterly laughable that you can't see why women wouldn't want to share a changing room with people who hold up signs like that.

 

[multitool]

And what on earth has her skin got to do with anything?

Hate ages people. See also Katie Hopkins

It's utterly laughable that you can't see why women(*) wouldn't want to share a changing room with people who hold up signs like that.

Looks like she/he (I can't read gender from the photo) only wants to decapitate Terfs, so that's you in the clear.

If that person is a trans woman then the likelihood is they already do use women's changing rooms. Get back to me when you find out how many women she's decapitated. Or indeed, any trans woman terf-decapitator. The real violence is in the domestic environment, by cis men.

Look, whoever that person is, they are an idiot. But no, I'm not going to be manoeuvred back to your toilet obsession

(* I think you forgot the words "a minority of", if you are indeed doing your usual trick of conflating one person with a whole group.)

 

[multitool]

Going down the 'both sides' route then, despite the fact that the vitriol and death threats pretty much go in one direction only between feminists and transactivists.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You really are putting all your chips on the toilet survey today aren't you. Plenty of evidence the public aren't in favour of self ID in general but the bog poll trumps all it seems.

Any UK feminist women out carrying signs in public or actually demonstrating with placards calling for violence? If we're just doing Twitter stuff I could fill a hundred pages on here with abuse just aimed at J. K. Rowling alone. Any feminists standing outside people's work with smoke bombs and placards like at Kathleen Stock's uni office?

Did you see the Tweet yesterday where the Scottish guy suggested running over Kellie Jay Keen at her next public meeting, and killing J. K. Rowling with a hammer? He very considerately did a Gaelic audio clip.

Meanwhile Joanna Cherry SMP is waiting for the trial of the man who threatened to kill her.

'Both sides' lol.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Interesting article on the reality of Gender Recognition Certificates and what they do and do not do.

https://tomharwood.substack.com/p/the-most-misunderstood-debate-in

 

[AuroraSaab]

Hate ages people. See also Katie Hopkins

The real violence is in the domestic environment, by cis men.

Nah. You didn't say she looked old. You said she had bad skin and looked like a drag act. You just thought you'd slip in something nasty and irrelevant about her appearance and hope it went unnoticed.

We agree male violence is the issue at least. For the umpteenth time though, arguments like 'You'll probably get assaulted at home first' are no excuse to abandon general safeguarding based around women's safety, privacy, and dignity.

We don't wave away all safeguarding for schools because statistically parents are more likely to hurt a child than a teacher. It's about minimising all risks.

 

[multitool]

Equally, we dont exclude all teachers from schools even though they pose a statistical risk to children.

The drag act joke was not originally mine. I wish it had been, its a good one. And, yes, I've realised by now that youve had a succesful humour-bypass.

It's reassuring to know, though, that the only hate-speech that counts is what is written on one or two placards at a rally and that calls for genocide are absolutely fine, as long as they are only on social media visible to millions.

Look, take the last word. This is pointless.

 

[Bromptonaut]

It's easy to be kind when that kindness comes at other people's expense.

You've tried more than once to portray my stance on this as either or both of being kind or dealing with friends.

It's neither of those things.

My starting point is that Transwomen should be treated as women.

Any increase in risk to those born female which that poses needs to be managed and mitigated.

Gender neutral facilities are not a proportionate or realistic mitigation.

 

[Ian H]

Interesting article on the reality of Gender Recognition Certificates and what they do and do not do.

https://tomharwood.substack.com/p/the-most-misunderstood-debate-in

Sorry, but that's a bit too sane and sensible - can you tone it up a bit.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Interesting article on the reality of Gender Recognition Certificates and what they do and do not do.

https://tomharwood.substack.com/p/the-most-misunderstood-debate-in

In that article Tom Harwood seems completely unaware of the Haldane ruling in Scotland which stated that people with a GRC are to be treated for all intents and purposes as the opposite sex. They are legally, in every respect, their new chosen sex in Scotland. In the case of transwomen this means they cannot be excluded from women's single sex spaces.

The whole row is about whether these changes undermine UK reserved law. If what Tom Harwood says is true, it wouldn't matter, and the UK government wouldn't be intervening.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...day confirmed,simply by signing a declaration.

 

[AuroraSaab]

My starting point is that Transwomen should be treated as women.

Any increase in risk to those born female which that poses needs to be managed and mitigated.

Gender neutral facilities are not a proportionate or realistic mitigation.

So it's only risk of violence or sexual assault that counts? What about privacy and dignity? What about being able to ask for same sex intimate care if you are old or disabled?

There's no evidence that transwomen are less of a risk to females than any other person born male. If single sex spaces are a disproportionate response, and you want to extend the access to transwomen, why should it not be extended to all men? You are arguing to make everywhere unisex surely.

How we mitigate risk is by excluding all males regardless of how they identify or how lovely they are.

 

[Ian H]

"Lady Haldane did caveat her judgment by remarking that it does not give rise to a conflict with other legislation where it is clear that sex means biological sex, for example the Forensic Medical Services Act 2021 which gives sexual assault victims a legal right to make a choice in terms of the gender of their medical examiner."

 

[AuroraSaab]

Yes, that issue (Forensic Services) is an exception because there was a long campaign about that legislation called the 'Six Words' campaign. The proposed bill said rape victims should have the right to be examined by someone of the same gender, which of course is ambiguous. The six words were to 'replace the word gender with sex' in the proposed legislation. The Scottish government wanted it to be gender - ie. how you identify rather than biological sex. They dropped their opposition to it being 'sex' eventually and the ammendment passed.

The Greens and Lib Dems voted against the ammendment.

Full story here:
https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...gly-vote-replace-gender-sex-rape-support-law/

It's kind of unthinkable that anyone should want to deny a rape victim the right to be examined after a sexual assault by someone of the same biological sex, but there you go.

I think if Haldane wanted to make clear her judgement didn't change the exemptions of the Equality Act she would have directly said so, surely.

(Edited for clarity)

 

[Bromptonaut]

So it's only risk of violence or sexual assault that counts? What about privacy and dignity? What about being able to ask for same sex intimate care if you are old or disabled?

I didn't specify violence or sexual assault.

How, short of the carer being required to drop their pants and assuming no 'bottom surgery', would somebody receiving intimate care from a Transwoman know that they were being treated by a woman with a dormant penis?