Gender again. Sorry!

[newfhouse]

there seems very little room for manouvrability between the two apparently polar opposite positions

Odd, because that middle ground is where the vast majority of us seem to loiter.

 

[icowden]

Putting the bins out is like a two minute job on a Sunday night. I'm not sure it really counts.

Ah. I can see you must be only an apprentice binman.

The pro-bin putter outer must first squish the contents of the bin and tie the refuse sack (unless it's recycling week - then bin duties include climbing on the bin to do some jumping / compression). Then the food bin sack must be tied. Then into the icy wastes to juggle the bins and get the correct ones out the front.

Many think that this is job done.
Little do they know...

Next the foxproofing of the food bin. The placement of the handle must be just so and the brick retrieved from the hedge.

Finished? Not yet.
A new sack must be fitted to the inside bin and the food bin must be cleaned and disinfected, the carbon filter washed and dried.

A harrowing task my friend...

And of course, there is the *emergency* bin duty during the week when the bin sack has split or may contain glass...

 

[Rusty Nails]

Odd, because that middle ground is where the vast majority of us seem to loiter.

"...that the thread's main protagonists demand answers on".

 

[winjim]

Ah. I can see you must be only an apprentice binman.

The pro-bin putter outer must first squish the contents of the bin and tie the refuse sack (unless it's recycling week - then bin duties include climbing on the bin to do some jumping / compression). Then the food bin sack must be tied. Then into the icy wastes to juggle the bins and get the correct ones out the front.

Many think that this is job done.
Little do they know...

Next the foxproofing of the food bin. The placement of the handle must be just so and the brick retrieved from the hedge.

Finished? Not yet.
A new sack must be fitted to the inside bin and the food bin must be cleaned and disinfected, the carbon filter washed and dried.

A harrowing task my friend...

And of course, there is the *emergency* bin duty during the week when the bin sack has split or may contain glass...

You work in middle management then...

 

[newfhouse]

"...that the thread's main protagonists demand answers on".

I was supporting your point, not arguing with it.

 

[Ian H]

Ah. I can see you must be only an apprentice binman.

The pro-bin putter outer must first squish the contents of the bin and tie the refuse sack (unless it's recycling week - then bin duties include climbing on the bin to do some jumping / compression). Then the food bin sack must be tied. Then into the icy wastes to juggle the bins and get the correct ones out the front.

Many think that this is job done.
Little do they know...

Next the foxproofing of the food bin. The placement of the handle must be just so and the brick retrieved from the hedge.

Finished? Not yet.
A new sack must be fitted to the inside bin and the food bin must be cleaned and disinfected, the carbon filter washed and dried.

A harrowing task my friend...

And of course, there is the *emergency* bin duty during the week when the bin sack has split or may contain glass...

Blimey! Our collections are every 3 weeks. We put the bin out every third or fourth collection. We buy very little packaged stuff and recycle whatever we can.

 

[icowden]

Blimey! Our collections are every 3 weeks. We put the bin out every third or fourth collection. We buy very little packaged stuff and recycle whatever we can.

That would be a challenge! I have two recycling bins, but I do have to police the refuse bin...

 

[multitool]

TRANSGENDER EX-SOLDIER IN WOKE BIN SEX HORROR!!!!


https://amp.lbc.co.uk/news/transgender-former-soldier-emily-thompson-sex-act-middlesborough/

 

[icowden]

TRANSGENDER EX-SOLDIER IN WOKE BIN SEX HORROR!!!!
https://amp.lbc.co.uk/news/transgender-former-soldier-emily-thompson-sex-act-middlesborough/

Thompson has 17 convictions for 22 offences, including sexually assaulting an underage girl in 2011, and was still under a suspended sentence order at the time of her latest crimes.
Previously convicted as Andrew McNab, the defendant had been put on the sex offenders' register and made subject to notification requirements in 2011 for sexually assaulting an underage girl.
Thompson, who used to be a soldier, pleaded guilty to her three most recent crimes on February 15.

Bloody women!

Why can't a woman be more like a man?
Men are so honest, so thoroughly square;
Eternally noble, historically fair.
Who, when you win, will always give your back a pat.
Why can't a woman be like that?

Why must a woman indulge in such sin?
Attaching a cock to a wheelie bin?
Flashing her parts with a rictus grin.
Why can't she just get a man instead,
To satisfy her needs in a nice warm bed?

 

[mudsticks]

Putting the bins out is like a two minute job on a Sunday night. I'm not sure it really counts.

Gives you chance for a breath of fresh air , and to peer at the stars beyond the streetlights too eh??

Whereas washing up, never ends..

We pretty much equally share most domesticity here, but he definitely does more food shopping.

I s'pose it balances out cos I grow so much of the rest of what we eat..

Odd, because that middle ground is where the vast majority of us seem to loiter.

Re inhabiting the 'middle ground'

Fwiw I run events here on the farm
for women (including transwomen naturally) and non binary folk.

So in that case yes we say yes no problems at all - transwomen are women, and yes they and the non binary people too are very welcome.
We spend time talking about the struggles of lgbtq+ people in our field of endeavour, and discuss ways of tackling them.
Nobody thinks that we should do otherwise, we're all over the LGBTQ+ consciousness here.

Any cis guys present on site at the time including my male partner and grown up male(ish) children - if they're about quite happily, and most understandingly clear off for the weekend whilst we get down to 'doing our women+ only thing'.

But funnily enough at the same time it doesn't make me a raging terf or transphobe or whatever if I have reservations, or I can see why other people have qualms about self IDing transwomen (so effectively any man) being able to access all womens safe spaces, particularly those spaces reserved for women at their most vulnerable.

I could easy say 'no skin off of my nose' and try to make myself look totally cool and groovy and say all transwomen are women under all circumstances, cos the likelihood of my ending up in a refuge, or anywhere more scarey than an open prison, is hopefully receding pretty fast now (but never gone altogether of course)

But my lovely lefty liberal, pretty safe and priveleged life isn't how it is for all female bodied people, at all.

Those less priveleged, less articulate, less safe women have needs and rights too yes??
It's not for anyone else to decide they're all terrible people for wanting exclusive safe spaces, and that they all need 'immediate reeducation' as if 'they' are the major problem here.

There's a reason why many women need safe spaces, its mainly or in fact almost entirely to do with male bodied violence of word and deed against women (and against transwomen too I suspect)

Separate sporting categories are an example of positive discrimination, generally in favour of women, which are also designed to provide equality of opportunity.

Back in the day I used to think we didn't need all women shortlists, or positive discrimination either.

Having lived a little longer the obvious and sometimes more subtle barriers to women entering 'non trad' male' fields, eg stem occupations have become much more apparent, to me.

Even now I routinely encounter women with tales of both overt and covert discrimination against them as they contemplate taking up non trad female jobs.

That discrimination deters many, or means they're less confident, they feel they have to prove themselves, represent the whole of womanhood via their endless 'excellence' or else fear letting the whole of the sisterhood down in some way - I know - I used to feel I had to do that too.

But of course if there is positive discrimination in terms of candidate selection, in an attempt to give better equality of opportunity, then they'll be labelled (by some) as the 'diversity hire'.

It's almost as if we can't win..🙄

 

[Ian H]

Gives you chance for a breath of fresh air , and to peer at the stars beyond the streetlights too eh??

Whereas washing up, never ends..

We pretty much equally share most domesticity here, but he definitely does more food shopping.

I s'pose it balances out cos I grow so much of the rest of what we eat..


Re inhabiting the 'middle ground'

Fwiw I run events here on the farm
for women (including transwomen naturally) and non binary folk.

So in that case yes we say yes no problems at all - transwomen are women, and yes they and the non binary people too are very welcome.
We spend time talking about the struggles of lgbtq+ people in our field of endeavour, and discuss ways of tackling them.
Nobody thinks that we should do otherwise, we're all over the LGBTQ+ consciousness here.

Any cis guys present on site at the time including my male partner and grown up male(ish) children - if they're about quite happily, and most understandingly clear off for the weekend whilst we get down to 'doing our women+ only thing'.

But funnily enough at the same time it doesn't make me a raging terf or transphobe or whatever if I have reservations, or I can see why other people have qualms about self IDing transwomen (so effectively any man) being able to access all womens safe spaces, particularly those spaces reserved for women at their most vulnerable.

I could easy say 'no skin off of my nose' and try to make myself look totally cool and groovy and say all transwomen are women under all circumstances, cos the likelihood of my ending up in a refuge, or anywhere more scarey than an open prison, is hopefully receding pretty fast now (but never gone altogether of course)

But my lovely lefty liberal, pretty safe and priveleged life isn't how it is for all female bodied people, at all.

Those less priveleged, less articulate, less safe women have needs and rights too yes??
It's not for anyone else to decide they're all terrible people for wanting exclusive safe spaces, and that they all need 'immediate reeducation' as if 'they' are the major problem here.

There's a reason why many women need safe spaces, its mainly or in fact almost entirely to do with male bodied violence of word and deed against women (and against transwomen too I suspect)




Back in the day I used to think we didn't need all women shortlists, or positive discrimination either.

Having lived a little longer the obvious and sometimes more subtle barriers to women entering 'non trad' male' fields, eg stem occupations have become much more apparent, to me.

Even now I routinely encounter women with tales of both overt and covert discrimination against them as they contemplate taking up non trad female jobs.

That discrimination deters many, or means they're less confident, they feel they have to prove themselves, represent the whole of womanhood via their endless 'excellence' or else fear letting the whole of the sisterhood down in some way - I know - I used to feel I had to do that too.

But of course if there is positive discrimination in terms of candidate selection, in an attempt to give better equality of opportunity, then they'll be labelled (by some) as the 'diversity hire'.

It's almost as if we can't win..🙄

Discrimination is often subtle & perhaps sometimes unconscious. https://gap.hks.harvard.edu/orchestrating-impartiality-impact-“blind”-auditions-female-musicians

 

[mudsticks]

Discrimination is often subtle & perhaps sometimes unconscious. https://gap.hks.harvard.edu/orchestrating-impartiality-impact-“blind”-auditions-female-musicians

Well of course it is, there have been numerous studies that prove the existence of 'unconcious bias' and much discrimination is nowadays covert rather than overt.

Once you see it, however, it's hard to 'unsee'
But for many of those whom it doesn't really impact (or who benefit from it) it's just 'cis, white, patriachy' business as usual.

I'm reminded of when I first joined CC - not deliberately as gender neutral - but for what was being discussed it wasn't really relevant.

It wasn't until about 18mnths later that the penny finally dropped and

"Well dash it all, if one of those goddam 'wimmin' hasn't infiltrated our ranks!?!?!?"

And the subsequent response to my input, from some people changed quite markedly ..

 

[Ian H]

Well of course it is, there have been numerous studies that prove the existence of 'unconcious bias' and much discrimination is nowadays covert rather than overt.

Once you see it, however, it's hard to 'unsee'
But for many of those whom it doesn't really impact (or who benefit from it) it's just 'cis, white, patriachy' business as usual.

I'm reminded of when I first joined CC - not deliberately as gender neutral - but for what was being discussed it wasn't really relevant.

It wasn't until about 18mnths later that the penny finally dropped and

"Well dash it all, if one of those goddam 'wimmin' hasn't infiltrated our ranks!?!?!?"

And the subsequent response to my input, from some people changed quite markedly ..

E remarks how, talking to tradesmen here, if either of us asks a question, the answer is always directed at me. Same with emails & invoices.
Having said that, our plumber now makes a valiant effort not to do that - ever since I mentioned it to his daughter (who rolled her eyes).

 

[mudsticks]

E remarks how, talking to tradesmen here, if either of us asks a question, the answer is always directed at me. Same with emails & invoices.
Having said that, our plumber now makes a valiant effort not to do that - ever since I mentioned it to his daughter (who rolled her eyes).

It's pretty routine for 'any other male available' to be approached if a delivery driver turns up here with a piece of kit, or supplies for the farm.

Even though the delivery note clearly has a female name printed on it .

Of course, if you say anything you'll just be 'tiresomely going on' or 'engaging in gender warfare'

If you don't say anything, nothing changes.

As I said before, there's few ways of 'winning' this one.

But I guess that's - unconsciously maybe- the whole idea.

 

[mudsticks]

E remarks how, talking to tradesmen here, if either of us asks a question, the answer is always directed at me. Same with emails & invoices.
Having said that, our plumber now makes a valiant effort not to do that - ever since I mentioned it to his daughter (who rolled her eyes).

In the interest of balance though.

I do have an absolutely brilliant tractor mechanic, who never patronises me, never makes sexist remarks if I've done something stupid.
(I guess at his age he's seen all of us farmers of all of the genders do all of the dumb stuff 🙄)

And he's a much older very local guy who will have grown up with the 'old fashioned' ways in the sticks.
So it goes to show (to me at least) that tedious sexism isn't ingrained, it may be a unconciously 'learnt' behaviour, but it doesn't mean it can't be conciously 'unlearnt' either.