multitool
Pharaoh
I'd trust the prison service to make that judgement, in the knowledge that we live in an imperfect world
Gender again. Sorry!
- Thread starter theclaud
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I'd trust the prison service to make that judgement, in the knowledge that we live in an imperfect world
mudsticks
Squire
Right, so you wanted to troll AS, but then chickened out..
How noble, how brave.
What a skilful mass-debater
Many won't consider it 'statistically' irrelevant.
It will, for instance, be highly and personally relevant if any woman has to share a cell with her self ID'ing self
The number of women in the big wide world who have been sexually assaulted is already vast enough.
Far far higher than that recorded
In prisons that rises again.
But hey this is all about your chosen set of 'stats that are important'.
Not anyone's else's, and certainly not anyone else's feelings.
Aiui we 'get onto feelings later' once you've given permission for those to be discussed. 🙄
AuroraSaab
Squire
Men comit 98% of all sex crimes. Women comit very few, relatively speaking. Therefore even a few crimes recorded as being female but committed by trans identifying males will skew the figures.
The number of biological women in England and Wales prisons for sex crimes is something like 160 out of a prison population of around 4,000 (around 4%).
In 2019, there were 129 transwomen prisoners, of whom 74 were sex offenders - that's 57%. So it looks like transwomen are more likely to comit sex crimes than other crimes. If these were recorded in the female stats it would skew the figures. It would put the female sex offenders figure up by 50%.
This table doesn't include transwomen with a GRC. They are already recorded in the female sex offender stats, I understand.
As not all police are recording by sex anymore it's getting harder to get accurate statistics in other areas like number of arrests or charged.
Accepting transwomen as women in law, whether with a GRC or not, normalises allowing men into female single sex spaces. No, you don't need a GRC to rape a woman or girl but the whole notion of self-ID definitely helps.
The number of biological women in England and Wales prisons for sex crimes is something like 160 out of a prison population of around 4,000 (around 4%).
In 2019, there were 129 transwomen prisoners, of whom 74 were sex offenders - that's 57%. So it looks like transwomen are more likely to comit sex crimes than other crimes. If these were recorded in the female stats it would skew the figures. It would put the female sex offenders figure up by 50%.
This table doesn't include transwomen with a GRC. They are already recorded in the female sex offender stats, I understand.
As not all police are recording by sex anymore it's getting harder to get accurate statistics in other areas like number of arrests or charged.
Accepting transwomen as women in law, whether with a GRC or not, normalises allowing men into female single sex spaces. No, you don't need a GRC to rape a woman or girl but the whole notion of self-ID definitely helps.
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multitool
Pharaoh
I said 'bait', as in laying a little debating trap. That is not the same as trolling.
I said 'statistically'. Not anecdotally.
Your, or my feelings don't come into it. A distinction that you seem to struggle with.
You can discuss whatever you want. But what you can't do is obfuscate or divert when you are held to account for what you say, in classic AS style. It's no good playing the gender card either as a get out, because it just smacks of intellectual dishonesty.
There are people here who value your input on this thread, but I am not one of them, which is why I generally don't bother to engage with you. This isn't meant to flame you, it's by way of explanation. I'm interested in conceptual discussions especially if the concept is new to me. In that respect I have some similarities to Wimjim, and his stated reasons for limiting his participation in this thread resonate with me.
mudsticks
Squire
Yup, you do rather put your 'debating' agenda, and supposed 'intellect' well above that of others don't you.
To my knowledge I've not obfuscated nor diverted, when being 'held to account' - but you will obviously know far better about this, as on all other matters.
AuroraSaab
Squire
Overview of the history of trans identifying males in women's prisons here:
https://kpssinfo.org/history-of-males-in-womens-prisons/
Long story short, genital surgery used to be the criteria but since 2017 it's been gender identity.
https://kpssinfo.org/history-of-males-in-womens-prisons/
Long story short, genital surgery used to be the criteria but since 2017 it's been gender identity.
multitool
Pharaoh
Above yours, yes, certainly. Above everyone else's? Definitely not. You don't mind me being honest, I take it?
I didn't say you had, but your forum memory being somewhat short, you don't remember your own references. Remember when I said I can't be arsed discussing things with you? This is exactly one of the reasons why.
Look, this is boring. I find you terminally dull, you think I'm a dick. Shall we leave it at that? Nobody else wants to read this crap.
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multitool
Pharaoh
Sure, but 50% of naff all, is still naff all.
AuroraSaab
Squire
Well truth and accuracy matters. Recording crimes as women's crimes when they are done by men is wrong on every level. 50% is a huge increase but even 1% would be wrong.
Perhaps we could do the same for race. Let's add white men's crimes to the number of sex crimes done by black men until their total goes up by 50%. Let's see what the black community think about that.
Perhaps we could do the same for race. Let's add white men's crimes to the number of sex crimes done by black men until their total goes up by 50%. Let's see what the black community think about that.
multitool
Pharaoh
That analogy doesn't really work because white men's sex crimes mirror black men's sex crimes on a per pop. basis.
Women's sex crimes do not mirror men's in this respect. You have, moments ago, posted that of all sex crimes 98% are committed by men vs 2% by women.
Factor in that the additional figures will come from a tiny subset, of a tiny subset.
Whether it matters depends on what those statistics are used for, surely?
Women's sex crimes do not mirror men's in this respect. You have, moments ago, posted that of all sex crimes 98% are committed by men vs 2% by women.
Factor in that the additional figures will come from a tiny subset, of a tiny subset.
Whether it matters depends on what those statistics are used for, surely?
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AuroraSaab
Squire
It matters because it is wrong and inaccurate to blame offences done by one demographic on another demographic. The percentage increase is irrelevant.
If it went the other way and we were adding the sex crimes of others to the stats of transwomen's sex crimes I would imagine you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as inconsequential.
It's not inconsequential. These are not women's crimes. And they shouldn't be in a women's jail.
If it went the other way and we were adding the sex crimes of others to the stats of transwomen's sex crimes I would imagine you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as inconsequential.
It's not inconsequential. These are not women's crimes. And they shouldn't be in a women's jail.
multitool
Pharaoh
Yes, gender matters in terms of place of incarceration, this is true, but trans prisoners are not automatically placed in the prison of their chosen gender, so this is to some extent mitigated. Currently, and counter-intuitively, there is more violence in women's prisons than men's. Did you know this?
AuroraSaab
Squire
They are not placed there automatically but are able to request it, even without a GRC. I would imagine things like location (very few women's prisons) or having more freedom in the sex offenders wing of a male prison than being closely supervised in a women's prison if they are exceptionally high risk would come in to why they don't all request it.
Of course it's not just about safety, it's about privacy and dignity, but I'll take your word for it on the assault rate. If there are more assaults by female prisoners in jail I would be interested to know the level of violence needed to record it as an assault though. It might be quite a low threshold; pushing or slapping for example.
I can't remember seeing a case of a female prisoner killing another female prisoner in a UK jail.
And of course, most of us would rather take our chances in a fight with any woman than try to fight off an adult male.
If women's jails have a higher rate of assault, transwomen will be safer in a male prison then. Best keep them all there for their own welfare, I reckon.
Of course it's not just about safety, it's about privacy and dignity, but I'll take your word for it on the assault rate. If there are more assaults by female prisoners in jail I would be interested to know the level of violence needed to record it as an assault though. It might be quite a low threshold; pushing or slapping for example.
I can't remember seeing a case of a female prisoner killing another female prisoner in a UK jail.
And of course, most of us would rather take our chances in a fight with any woman than try to fight off an adult male.
If women's jails have a higher rate of assault, transwomen will be safer in a male prison then. Best keep them all there for their own welfare, I reckon.
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AuroraSaab
Squire
Why? By your reckoning they will be safer in a male prison as there are fewer assaults. Surely you're not suggesting men are a danger to female bodied people in vulnerable spaces and it would be better to keep men away from them?
